September 23, 2020, 10:47:54 pm

Lifesaving Ribbon Attachments

Started by JC004, April 01, 2020, 11:53:31 pm

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JC004

April 01, 2020, 11:53:31 pm Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 11:58:55 pm by JC004
I am trying to be certain of the correct way for me to update a Lifesaving ribbon.  The new guidance talks about clasps.  But clasps could ALSO denote blood/organ transport (I'm not eligible based on blood/organ transport).  Am I reading correctly that a second star-attachment-eligible award is ALSO denoted with just a bronze clasp?  It used to be you could only wear one Lifesaving.  It seems like the clasp can mean either type of the award.

The Text:

Quote from: undefinedh. Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving.  Awarded to members who save a human life, but do not meet the criteria for the Bronze or Silver Medal of Valor.  Members who are credited with a  save  as  a  result  of  participation  in  a  blood  or  organ  transport  mission  will  be  awarded  the  basic  ribbon.    A  silver  star  will  be  attached  to  the  ribbon  in  recognition  of  lifesaving  actions  other  than  blood  or  organ  transport.    Members  who  were  previously awarded  the  ribbon  for  a  save  other  than  blood or organ transport should attach a silver star to the ribbon.  Subsequent awards are denoted by the addition of bronze or silver clasps to the ribbon.  A maximum of three devices (one silver star and  two  clasps)  may  be  worn.    The  silver  star  remains  centered  on  the  ribbon.    The  first  clasp  is  placed  on  the  wearer's  left  side  of  the  silver  star,  the  second  clasp  to  the  wearer's  right.    When  the  number  of  devices  exceeds  three,  a  second  ribbon  is  worn  to  the  wearers  left  of  the  initial  ribbon.    The  second  ribbon  counts  for  one  subsequent  award.    When  future  awards  reduce  the  devices  to  a  single  ribbon  the  second  ribbon  is  removed.    All  previous  criteria  and  wear  instructions  no  longer  apply.

baronet68

Only one star is worn on the Lifesaving Award.  So yes, clasps indicate multiple awards under either criteria.

The McChord Rack Builder shows the all of the proper star/clasp configurations.

Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

JC004

Some of these rules are bizarre....like the stars on the CSA ribbon.  The SAR ribbon allows the prop...which could be used for air blood/organ on the Lifesaving.  Up to 3 stars doesn't seem problematic, if they made that the rule instead.

Eclipse

Actually, in some cases, the decoration or device to be worn is dictated by whose blood it was or which organ...

A big toe, for example, only qualifies for a certificate of appreciation, however if it was Charlie Sheen's Tiger blood,
that is an automatic SMV.



Spam

Hey, this is slightly off topic, but I wanted to post a personal thanks to all of you who've flown organ transplant and blood missions. My wife of 29 years had a life saving organ transplant a year ago, and while this now is an amazingly stressful time due to her compromised immune system (antirejection meds do that by design) I want to express my gratitude. As we've slowly worked through painful recovery we have chatted about this; we have no idea who the donor was or how it arrived (by policy) but to us, you're all involved in spirit at the least.

Very Respectfully.
Spam

JC004

Before I commit to this, am I doing this right?  (Yes, I am replacing the mini star to match the full-size prop, too)

Honestly, I think it looks bad.  But I am using this from 39-1:

Quote from: undefined11.4.2. Devices will be worn on the ribbon of CAP miniature medals in accordance with instructions found in CAPR 39-3 for ribbons, except the devices will be rotated clockwise to be worn vertically rather than horizontally. Wear only separate devices on medals. Precedence will be to the top of the miniature medal ribbon (rather than to the right), and devices worn centered horizontally will be centered vertically. Wear a maximum of four devices unless wearing more prevents adding a second medal. Place silver clasps, stars, etc. above similar bronze devices. Either full size or miniature attachments (clasps, stars, etc.) may be worn on the miniature medals; however, all devices will be the same size.



baronet68

Quote from: JC004 on September 21, 2020, 09:55:13 pmBefore I commit to this, am I doing this right?  (Yes, I am replacing the mini star to match the full-size prop, too)

Honestly, I think it looks bad.  But I am using this from 39-1:

Quote from: undefined11.4.2. Devices will be worn on the ribbon of CAP miniature medals in accordance with instructions found in CAPR 39-3 for ribbons, except the devices will be rotated clockwise to be worn vertically rather than horizontally. Wear only separate devices on medals. Precedence will be to the top of the miniature medal ribbon (rather than to the right), and devices worn centered horizontally will be centered vertically. Wear a maximum of four devices unless wearing more prevents adding a second medal. Place silver clasps, stars, etc. above similar bronze devices. Either full size or miniature attachments (clasps, stars, etc.) may be worn on the miniature medals; however, all devices will be the same size.




Have you tried this cool site?

http://mcchord.org/rack_builder/



The Senior Member rack builder shows the proper device placement and mounting options for miniature medals.


Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

JC004

Yesterday at 12:18:00 am #7 Last Edit: Yesterday at 12:31:55 am by JC004
Quote from: baronet68 on September 21, 2020, 10:48:52 pmHave you tried this cool site?

http://mcchord.org/rack_builder/



The Senior Member rack builder shows the proper device placement and mounting options for miniature medals.





I wouldn't use a rack builder because they're not authoritative.  For example, we know this one is wrong because "A maximum of three devices (one silver star and  two  clasps)  may  be  worn." 

So those two last mini medals wouldn't be proper reg.  If I had 4 awards or more, I'd have to wear a second medal.

I am reading this to understand the silver star stays in the middle, it doesn't budge with the new attachment, and the bronze clasp simply goes below it (as if the regular ribbon was tipped on its side.).

I feel like the bronze clasp should go centered between the star and end of the medal's ribbon.  But that's the kind of thing I'm trying to figure out.

NIN

Two ways this convo goes at the region banquet

"Wow, lifesaving. Good on you, man."

Or

"What possessed you to center that clasp like that. Dirtbag."

Which one actually will happen?

Hint: it's not the latter
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

JC004

Yesterday at 01:26:08 am #9 Last Edit: Yesterday at 01:29:42 am by JC004
Quote from: NIN on Yesterday at 01:17:04 amTwo ways this convo goes at the region banquet

"Wow, lifesaving. Good on you, man."

Or

"What possessed you to center that clasp like that. Dirtbag."

Which one actually will happen?

Hint: it's not the latter

I wasn't planning on WEARING it tho....

If you plan any risky skydiving, could I go with you, so I can see about evening it out with the symmetry of a prop on the other side?

PHall

Quote from: JC004 on Yesterday at 01:26:08 am
Quote from: NIN on Yesterday at 01:17:04 amTwo ways this convo goes at the region banquet

"Wow, lifesaving. Good on you, man."

Or

"What possessed you to center that clasp like that. Dirtbag."

Which one actually will happen?

Hint: it's not the latter

I wasn't planning on WEARING it tho....

If you plan any risky skydiving, could I go with you, so I can see about evening it out with the symmetry of a prop on the other side?

So why did you even post your question here if you already had made your mind up what the "correct" answer was already?

Eclipse

Quote from: NIN on Yesterday at 01:17:04 amTwo ways this convo goes at the region banquet

"Wow, lifesaving. Good on you, man."

Or

"What possessed you to center that clasp like that. Dirtbag."

Which one actually will happen?

Hint: it's not the latter

Meh, I'd say i'd be about 50/50 that it will be from someone 30 over in blues
with a Wing patch on their service coat, or whites with a scuba bubble and
an AFOEA at the top of their rack.



JC004

Quote from: PHall on Yesterday at 01:55:11 am
Quote from: JC004 on Yesterday at 01:26:08 am
Quote from: NIN on Yesterday at 01:17:04 amTwo ways this convo goes at the region banquet

"Wow, lifesaving. Good on you, man."

Or

"What possessed you to center that clasp like that. Dirtbag."

Which one actually will happen?

Hint: it's not the latter

I wasn't planning on WEARING it tho....

If you plan any risky skydiving, could I go with you, so I can see about evening it out with the symmetry of a prop on the other side?

So why did you even post your question here if you already had made your mind up what the "correct" answer was already?

I said "I feel like;" not that I was certain (open to the input of people who have actually built mini medal racks, which I have not).  I didn't make up my mind on how to set it until I looked through 39-1 again, 39-3, and the AFI, plus some example pictures.  Measuring exact center using a centering ruler was putting it really low.  The rack builder shows them clustered TOGETHER.  The builder also moves the star.  I re-read 39-1 and decided it should not budge in my interpretation.  These rules are new...attachments were never authorized in the past.

JC004

Yesterday at 02:16:30 am #13 Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:33:46 am by JC004
Quote from: Eclipse on Yesterday at 02:03:12 am
Quote from: NIN on Yesterday at 01:17:04 amTwo ways this convo goes at the region banquet

"Wow, lifesaving. Good on you, man."

Or

"What possessed you to center that clasp like that. Dirtbag."

Which one actually will happen?

Hint: it's not the latter

Meh, I'd say i'd be about 50/50 that it will be from someone 30 over in blues
with a Wing patch on their service coat, or whites with a scuba bubble and
an AFOEA at the top of their rack.


I've had my first award of the ribbon for 20 years, Bob.  Nobody comes up and says anything like "wow."  I'm not sure yet how people will like what I believe to be the correct centering, based on re-reading everything carefully and checking the AFI for good measure before I poked the holes.

WIWAC, I was harassed over it because others believed this young airman was wearing it in error or whatever (to the point that Colonel Trick stepped in at a conference, confirmed with Colonel Weiss it was authorized, then went about telling people to leave me alone).  Some people ask if it's the Spaatz ribbon.  Some people ask what it is because they've never seen one.  Nobody is amazed.  Nobody asks for the backstory or anything.  I don't think anyone ever has in 20 years.

Besides, I'm inadequate: my grandfather was a Civil Air Patrol Bronze Medal of Valor recipient.  So I have to live in that shadow.

Oh...There is one cool part: Talking with fellow recipients.  That's about it.  It's probably more common for people to think it's an improperly worn Spaatz ribbon (the yellow isn't very dark, and people don't see Spaatz ribbons all the time either).  CAPTalk's very own Ned actually asked me once what that ribbon was "that looks like a Spaatz" while we were waiting for the Metro in DC.  He has one of those and still wasn't entirely sure what mine was.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: NIN on Yesterday at 01:17:04 amTwo ways this convo goes at the region banquet

"Wow, lifesaving. Good on you, man."

Or

"What possessed you to center that clasp like that. Dirtbag."

Which one actually will happen?

Hint: it's not the latter

At the event, probably not. The person who makes that comment is the jealous know-it-all who needs a lot more attention in his social universe.

But, in preparing for the event, researching proper wear is always a positive. In this case, now that we're discussing, let's get the correct answer and wear it properly.

Capt Thompson

As I'm interpreting the regs, you are correct, the silver star would remain centered and the bronze clasp would go below it, and another award would place another clasp above. Don't poke holes in the medals and use the prongs, break them off and use a drop of elmers school glue. The prongs could break off, causing you to lose the star or clasp, and they will eventually rub the back of the ribbon and cause wear. The elmers will hold just fine, but can be removed later if needed.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

JC004

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on Yesterday at 01:38:45 pm
Quote from: NIN on Yesterday at 01:17:04 amTwo ways this convo goes at the region banquet

"Wow, lifesaving. Good on you, man."

Or

"What possessed you to center that clasp like that. Dirtbag."

Which one actually will happen?

Hint: it's not the latter

At the event, probably not. The person who makes that comment is the jealous know-it-all who needs a lot more attention in his social universe.

But, in preparing for the event, researching proper wear is always a positive. In this case, now that we're discussing, let's get the correct answer and wear it properly.

My experience has been that mostly people don't care, unless they think I'm wearing something unauthorized (that was much more of an issue when I was a young cadet with like half a dozen ribbons).  I had stopped wearing it due to that pressure, until some Colonels came to my defense and told them to leave me alone.  The only "wow" reaction I remember was a basic cadet at Encampment who wanted to know how to earn as many ribbons as I had (which was partly about the others as well...not the Lifesaving specifically).


Quote from: Capt Thompson on Yesterday at 02:14:17 pmAs I'm interpreting the regs, you are correct, the silver star would remain centered and the bronze clasp would go below it, and another award would place another clasp above. Don't poke holes in the medals and use the prongs, break them off and use a drop of elmers school glue. The prongs could break off, causing you to lose the star or clasp, and they will eventually rub the back of the ribbon and cause wear. The elmers will hold just fine, but can be removed later if needed.

Yeah, I think the rack builder is in error as far as the movement and such.  But seeing those results prompted me to go back and figure out the star, and whether it should move or any of that.

I thought about a glue, but in playing with the medal to see how it might work out, I thought not having a hard back might cause problems with adhesive, and I decided to pin them in.  I centered the bronze clasp below the centered full-size silver star.  I didn't feel like grouping them (as the rack builder showed) was right either.  I DO think that I am going to go with an adhesive on the plain ribbon rack.  I am going to experiment with a couple things like hot glue.  A cadet showed some nice ribbons that were done with nail polish.  I had used a glue in the past, but it soaked into the ribbons - spreading, changing color, and such.  That was not a successful adhesive.  I watched someone from the Army do wonders with hot glue and heating the DEVICE.  Worth a try. 

If I run a series of experiments on the regular ribbons, I may post the results here of what worked and what didn't.  I like to share my findings of the good stuff for the benefit of all.  Save them work and money (and cut down on the "Come And Pay").

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: JC004 on Yesterday at 03:07:30 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on Yesterday at 01:38:45 pmAt the event, probably not. The person who makes that comment is the jealous know-it-all who needs a lot more attention in his social universe.

But, in preparing for the event, researching proper wear is always a positive. In this case, now that we're discussing, let's get the correct answer and wear it properly.

My experience has been that mostly people don't care, unless they think I'm wearing something unauthorized (that was much more of an issue when I was a young cadet with like half a dozen ribbons).  I had stopped wearing it due to that pressure, until some Colonels came to my defense and told them to leave me alone.  The only "wow" reaction I remember was a basic cadet at Encampment who wanted to know how to earn as many ribbons as I had (which was partly about the others as well...not the Lifesaving specifically).

I'm tracking, but I don't agree.

If we didn't care how it was worn, we would have a 154-page PDF explaining uniforms and a 41-page PDF explaining awards.

We shouldn't go in with the mindset of "I don't care, as long as it looks good." I understand not knowing and not checking, so you slap it on the way you think it goes, and then you're corrected later and so you fix it.

Anyway, I think I've said my piece on this topic. I was following it since I'm pending the final approval for a Lifesaving award. I'm curious as to how it's supposed to be worn since this is something I'll be presenting for the first time and never paid much attention to.

JC004

Yesterday at 03:42:56 pm #18 Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:07:04 pm by JC004
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on Yesterday at 03:30:15 pmI'm tracking, but I don't agree.

If we didn't care how it was worn, we would have a 154-page PDF explaining uniforms and a 41-page PDF explaining awards.

We shouldn't go in with the mindset of "I don't care, as long as it looks good." I understand not knowing and not checking, so you slap it on the way you think it goes, and then you're corrected later and so you fix it.

Anyway, I think I've said my piece on this topic. I was following it since I'm pending the final approval for a Lifesaving award. I'm curious as to how it's supposed to be worn since this is something I'll be presenting for the first time and never paid much attention to.

I mean people don't care much about the ribbon itself to the point they make "wow" comments, ask for the backstory, or whatever.  It's not like a magic thing, or like seeing a Medal of Honor. 

You would wear the silver star centered (assuming it's not blood/organ transport), and you'd be set for years like I was.  No problem.  Gain a second award, and then you have people with varying ideas about whether they should be clustered close together, and things like that.

My first award was about 20 years ago, so I have some experience with this award. If you have any questions, feel free to let me know. But for a single award, it's pretty straightforward. WIWAC, there were no additional attachments authorized. You got to wear the ribbon with the star, and that was the end of it. Don't go saving more people, because then you will have to pay Vanguard more money. Ha. :-)

For the mini medal, you may wear the mini silver star or the full size star. But if you go saving additional people, you will need to wear the full-size regular ribbon star, because there's no such thing as a mini CAP prop clasp. The sizes must match, which is why I just had to change mine to a full size star. All attachments must be the same size.

You want the 3⁄16 inch silver star for the ribbon. You can wear either on the mini medal, but I recommend the 3⁄16 inch so your attachments will always match as required.