CAPF 60-81 Requirement

Started by Capmonkey, March 06, 2020, 02:06:37 pm

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Capmonkey

Good morning, all!
     I have a cadet who will be attending an out-of-state training academy that I'm hosting. No big deal, right? Well, his squadron CC is refusing to sign the CAPF 60-81, citing CAPR 60-1, para 8.4, which states,

"Units sometimes open their activities to cadets from outside units. To participate at an activity hosted by a CAP unit other than their own, cadets must obtain permission from their parent, home unit commander, and be accepted by the hosting unit. Commanders will ordinarily approve cadets' requests to attend these activities, denying requests only for good cause. If approving a cadet to attend an activity hosted by another wing, the unit commander will inform the wing DCP."

Now, I know that to participate in out-of-wing activities, you have to have the approval of the appropriate authority (Sq, Group if applicable, and Wing), but am unable to find the paragraph in 60-1 where it states this. Would someone mind pointing me in the right direction? Thanks for your help!

PS- I have extensively searched this topic, lol!

Eclipse

I don't think you're going to find anything to that effect. 
The idea that members are required to notify a wing commander when going out of state,
even with vehicles, seems to be either from an old reg, local policy, or a wives tale,
propagated by forms that are too general for the specifics.

Another example - there has been a long-standing practice of getting Wing CC approval for
out of state encampments, however the form itself says that if the activity is approved in
eservices, then that's not necessary.

What I don't get is the "refusal" - the reg says "notify the DCP".  So notify him.
If the Unit CC wants a Wing CC to approve, then send it up and get the sig.  Either
takes less time then the refusal.



Spam

That's it - you're looking at what replaced the old language.

So, whats the issue? If the CC disapproves, that's within his purview. I have in the past withdrawn NCSA permission for one of my approved slotted cadets, because of behavior.

On the other hand, he should be able to justify it - see the "ordinarily approve". I had to really work a few years ago to get ANY of my cadets approved through Wing for out of state encampments.

V/r
Spam

jeders

Quote from: Capmonkey on March 06, 2020, 02:06:37 pmNow, I know that to participate in out-of-wing activities, you have to have the approval of the appropriate authority (Sq, Group if applicable, and Wing), but am unable to find the paragraph in 60-1 where it states this. Would someone mind pointing me in the right direction? Thanks for your help!

PS- I have extensively searched this topic, lol!


You already posted it, the unit commander approves and signs. So why is the commander refusing to sign? I can understand group or wing commanders refusing to sign because they aren't in the approval chain anymore, but why would the squadron commander not sign?
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Capmonkey

Quote from: jeders on March 06, 2020, 02:41:00 pm
Quote from: Capmonkey on March 06, 2020, 02:06:37 pmNow, I know that to participate in out-of-wing activities, you have to have the approval of the appropriate authority (Sq, Group if applicable, and Wing), but am unable to find the paragraph in 60-1 where it states this. Would someone mind pointing me in the right direction? Thanks for your help!

PS- I have extensively searched this topic, lol!


You already posted it, the unit commander approves and signs. So why is the commander refusing to sign? I can understand group or wing commanders refusing to sign because they aren't in the approval chain anymore, but why would the squadron commander not sign?

The Unit CC didn't necessarily "disapprove" of the cadet participating. He felt that according to the aforementioned paragraph of 60-1, a 60-81 wasn't needed, and it seems like from the information approved, it's not. I definitely thank all of you for the help, and keeping it civil! 

jeders

The form is still needed if the unit hosting the activity requires it (that's how parent and unit level permission is recorded) and he needs to sign it in ink if he approves; it just doesn't need to be sent to higher headquarters.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Capmonkey

Quote from: jeders on March 06, 2020, 02:47:57 pmThe form is still needed if the unit hosting the activity requires it (that's how parent and unit level permission is recorded) and he needs to sign it in ink if he approves; it just doesn't need to be sent to higher headquarters.

I can consult my Wing CP staff on this, as they have some part in the event!

Eclipse

Quote from: jeders on March 06, 2020, 02:47:57 pmThe form is still needed if the unit hosting the activity requires it (that's how parent and unit level permission is recorded)

Agreed - a unit CC doesn't dictate the information or approval needs or a given activity,
that's at the discretion of the activity host or the prevailing regulation(s), or both.

Quote from: jeders on March 06, 2020, 02:47:57 pmand he needs to sign it in ink if he approves; it just doesn't need to be sent to higher headquarters.

Cite please.



jeders

Quote from: Eclipse on March 06, 2020, 02:59:17 pm
Quote from: jeders on March 06, 2020, 02:47:57 pmand he needs to sign it in ink if he approves; it just doesn't need to be sent to higher headquarters.

Cite please.

Quote from: CAPI 0-9 Para. 1. b.Forms listed with a double asterisk (**) may be transmitted as a scanned document (to include the person's actual signature) via fax or e-mail.

Granted, a pencil can be used, but ink is generally preferred from a legalistic stand point. The key thing though is that the commander has to actually sign it.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse

Quote from: jeders on March 06, 2020, 03:04:50 pmThe key thing though is that the commander has to actually sign it.

Again I ask for the cite - electronic signatures, facsimile or otherwise, have been acceptable
for ages, including emails that simply say "approved".

Little if anything is still signed with an implement in CAP these days, nor is it required.



jeders

I did cite, CAP Index 0-9 requires an actual signature. I don't care that commanders have ignored the rules for years.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse

Another place where the systems have outpaced the guidance.



NIN

Quote from: jeders on March 06, 2020, 03:04:50 pm
Quote from: CAPI 0-9 Para. 1. b.Forms listed with a double asterisk (**) may be transmitted as a scanned document (to include the person's actual signature) via fax or e-mail.

Granted, a pencil can be used, but ink is generally preferred from a legalistic stand point. The key thing though is that the commander has to actually sign it.

I'm kinda guessing that a "wet signature" that is then faxed isn't really a "wet signature" anymore. Amirite?
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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jeders

Agreed. And on that terrible disappointment I think we're done here.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse