A bad CAP experience? You should leave!

Started by Holding Pattern, February 13, 2020, 06:13:21 pm

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Holding Pattern

Recently I'm noting that a significant amount of advice being given when people are frustrated with CAP is for those people to simply bail out on the organization.

I believe this is not only bad advice, but is advice that will harm the organization as a whole as time goes on.

When someone runs into a problem, be it leadership, technical issues, or systemic problems, it behooves us to take the time to help those members identify the ways forward.

If the member wanted to just wash their hands of it and quit, they wouldn't be asking for advice.

If the member points out systemic problems in their AO, those in higher command positions might want to consider surprise inspections.

If the member points out a technical training gap, we should work with them to find solutions to that gap.

"Just leave, it clearly isn't working for you" means that whatever problems exist will exist for the next members that join up. The damage doesn't end with that one member who left.

Stop encouraging members to leave. Provide the positive paths forward. People know how to leave, they don't need advice on how to do that.

If I and my members quit whenever things got difficult, our squadron would have folded 2 years ago.

1st Lt Thompson

Agreed, while it's true that CAP isn't for everyone, most of the time when someone is frustrated there is a fixable reason, and not addressing it could possible lead to losing other members in the future who have the same frustrations but don't speak up.

If we do end up losing the member, it's very important to attempt an exit interview and find out why we're losing them, sometimes such interviews can be eye opening and a great benefit to an organization.
1st Lt Matt Thompson
Historian, Assistant PAO

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

etodd

I saw one person giving that advice, but most of us in the thread have given positive suggestions.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Holding Pattern

Quote from: etodd on February 13, 2020, 06:24:06 pmI saw one person giving that advice, but most of us in the thread have given positive suggestions.

It wasn't just that thread.

vorteks

Quote from: Holding Pattern on February 13, 2020, 06:13:21 pmI believe this is not only bad advice, but is advice that will harm the organization as a whole as time goes on.

Disagree with your blanket statement. Sometimes it's the right advice - for the individual and for CAP.

Spam

Quote from: Holding Pattern on February 13, 2020, 06:13:21 pmIf the member wanted to just wash their hands of it and quit, they wouldn't be asking for advice.

That's the crux of the matter, isn't it? ARE they here asking for advice? Are they here blowing off frustration or righteous anger?  Are they possibly consciously or unconsciously trying to smear someone in revenge (happens daily, from paid jobs down to homeowners associations).

I hate to say it, but sometimes the right answer is to counsel either a temporary or a permanent break, for reasons ranging from the mental health of the individual up to de-escalating a very hostile (volunteer) workplace situation.

Not everyone who could be in CAP, should be in CAP. I've always advised my troops to put their Faith, their Family, and their job (schools for cadets) before CAP or any volunteer work, and to suspend or quit CAP when those priorities are in trouble.  The wisdom I point to from Scripture is that deacons are supposed to step down, and go and put their houses in order before returning to serve. The nice thing about CAP is that (unlike the military where you could just be separated for failure to adapt) you can step away, as I have a few times over the decades (usually after command tours).

V/r
Spam

JohhnyD

Here is the problem, no one (in command) cares. The IG whitewashes real problems, commanders duck and weave and the rank and file suffer. At least when the command chain turns toxic. This is not new - I saw this in the 70's, I saw this in the 90's and just recently.

That said, when the command chain has stand-up folks, there is no better place to be.

My 2 cents.

Spam

Some have not. This is true, and JohnnyD is sadly on target.

I invite and challenge y'all to apply and be those stand-up folks. Start with being a local commander with the people you see every week, and make the unpopular (short term) decisions to set the healthy (long term) trend.  Then take a breath and step up to help lead units in your area, and eventually be the change you want to see in your Wing, as a staffer and as a Commander. For me, I needed to take a break for my family (see my note on priorities above - transplant patients need attention), but I'm up for more, in that long run.

If your personal life allows, step up and take the stick: I've got the jet - FIGHTS ON!

Vr
Spam

GaryVC

Quote from: Holding Pattern on February 13, 2020, 06:13:21 pmIf the member points out systemic problems in their AO, those in higher command positions might want to consider surprise inspections.

I agree with most of this but not surprise inspections. Not a CAP concept. I would suggest a visit to the unit.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: GaryVC on February 14, 2020, 10:13:11 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on February 13, 2020, 06:13:21 pmIf the member points out systemic problems in their AO, those in higher command positions might want to consider surprise inspections.

I agree with most of this but not surprise inspections. Not a CAP concept. I would suggest a visit to the unit.

I can assure you, this is a CAP concept. Most recent example in 2020.

Eclipse

What, exactly, is a "surprise inspection"?

IGs have no authority to simply show up and start asking questions or running
an SUI because they felt like it, and a Commander showing up and asking questions
is just doing his job.

Further, anything worth inspecting is in eServices, money, property, etc.

As said, this isn't a CAP thing.



Phil Hirons, Jr.

The proper term is no notice inspection.

CAPR 20-3 (bold added)

"5.6. All units, programs, and resources, at or below wing level, are subject to no notice
inspections, graded or ungraded, at the discretion of the BoG, CAP/CC, or CAP-USAF/CC."

Note that the IGs can't do this themselves, the order comes from very on high.
Like ES IGs don't self deploy.

OldGuy

Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on February 15, 2020, 06:32:14 pmThe proper term is no notice inspection.

CAPR 20-3 (bold added)

"5.6. All units, programs, and resources, at or below wing level, are subject to no notice
inspections, graded or ungraded, at the discretion of the BoG, CAP/CC, or CAP-USAF/CC."

Note that the IGs can't do this themselves, the order comes from very on high.
Like ES IGs don't self deploy.
And that IS a CAP thing.

Eclipse

Quote from: OldGuy on February 15, 2020, 09:42:07 pmAnd that IS a CAP thing.

No, it's really not, and doesn't happen unless there is a problem so over the top
as to be ridiculous to start with (like stealing 6-figures of pizza money).

There is nothing...

NO THING...

...that could be "going on at a unit" that would require the BOG or HEADCAP approval
of a "no notice inspection".

Cadet Abuse?  You're suspending the perp and calling the police.  That's not an inspection.

Missing money?  You think it's here in a drawer?

Missing property?  Same.

Don't like the cut of the local jib?  Good luck with inspecting that.

Failed SUI? Already a defined process that literally requires "notice".

I can't even imagine being in a situation, as a volunteer, where I would care at all
if higher HQ stopped by to address concerns or conduct an "inspection".

At the point where a disagreement became anything but a "whatever" situation, just disengage.  BTDT as well.

Baby Yoda save us CAP members can be self-aggrandizing sometimes, and talk about loving drama.



JohhnyD

Quote from: Eclipse on February 15, 2020, 11:04:51 pm
Quote from: OldGuy on February 15, 2020, 09:42:07 pmAnd that IS a CAP thing.

No, it's really not, and doesn't happen unless there is a problem so over the top
as to be ridiculous to start with (like stealing 6-figures of pizza money).

There is nothing...

NO THING...

...that could be "going on at a unit" that would require the BOG or HEADCAP approval
of a "no notice inspection".

Cadet Abuse?  You're suspending the perp and calling the police.  That's not an inspection.

Missing money?  You think it's here in a drawer?

Missing property?  Same.

Don't like the cut of the local jib?  Good luck with inspecting that.

Failed SUI? Already a defined process that literally requires "notice".

I can't even imagine being in a situation, as a volunteer, where I would care at all
if higher HQ stopped by to address concerns or conduct an "inspection".

At the point where a disagreement became anything but a "whatever" situation, just disengage.  BTDT as well.

Baby Yoda save us CAP members can be self-aggrandizing sometimes, and talk about loving drama.

Except I have seen that CAP thing. But you know everything, right?

CAP9907

21 yrs of service

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