Command Patch/Scarf, and Old Wing Patch on Flight Jacket

Started by Shdwcaster, December 09, 2019, 05:41:29 pm

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Shdwcaster

It finally happened, my DuckDuckGo-foo has failed me, and so this clueless butter bar need to pose a question to the brain trust here.

I recently came into possession of a new to me, but very vintage cold weather flight jacket meeting section whatever it is for flight suit and flight jacket. I was told that I'd need to remove the old command patch, which I very carefully did. However, the jacket also has an older version of our wing patch which, while not as pretty as the current version, looks exactly the same from more than a foot away. I can't find anything in 39-1 about old versions of wing patches, so I'm hoping it's okay to just leave this patch on. Whomever sowed these patches on back in the day did an excellent job.

Question 1: Is an older version of the wing patch acceptable, or must the jacket feature the current version of the patch?

While attempting to find an answer to this question myself, I realized that I may have incorrectly understood the entire purpose of the command patch (and scarf, for that matter). I've been a civilian my whole life, though military/LEO adjacent, so I don't always understand certain terminology. I saw "Command Patch" and understood it as "A patch denoting command, as in, something to be worn by squadron commanders and above." In studying an answer, I found that the correct understanding is perhaps "A patch denoting the command authority to which someone belongs, e.g. I would wear a CAP command patch on my aircrew gear because I'm a CAP member, whereas a C-17 Loadmaster wears an AMC command patch because he is under the authority of the Air Mobility Command."

Question 2: Is the command patch something restricted to commanders, or is it something to be worn by everyone as it designates the organization?

Thanks in advance.
2d Lt Giddings

jeders

For question 2, you wear the CAP Command patch as you are a member of CAP.

As for question 1, there is nothing specifically mentioned in 39-1 regarding version; however, once a new design has been approved, the old design becomes unapproved. Not knowing which wing you're in and what the older patch looks like, I can't give any further guidance, but you say that they look identical from more than a foot away. If they are the same design and that design is still approved, the old one just being an old production run, then leaving it should be fine. However, if the old patch is worn and no longer in good repair, I would recommend going ahead and putting on a new one, assuming you want it on the jacket as the wing patch is optional.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse

Most insignia designs have a wear-out date or an indicaiton of "old may be used until replaced, etc.
You'd have to check with your wing on that.

Command patch is worn by all as it represents CAP as a "Command" just as AETC, ACC, etc., etc., is.

That's why you'll see CAP-USAF one on on their uniforms and stationary.

Normally the MAJCOM would be used on everything CAP-related, but in its infinite wisdom, CAP has
issued branding guidelines that leave the choice up to the designer or publisher, but which favor the newer triangle.



Eclipse

The scarf is worn by anyone who finds themselves with a shortage of wedgies...



Shdwcaster

Thanks, that clarifies things nicely. Looks like I'll be buying a few command patches for my various uniform items, and probably accept the wedgie risk that comes with the scarf. It's friggin' cold sitting in the MS position when the pilot does run-up with the window open in the winter.

I can probably keep the old wing patch as is. I'm in South Dakota. Our wing patch features a rendering of South Dakota's most famous landmark. The change between the old and new patch version is that the new one has the president's heads rendered in crisp detail. The old one looks George was drawn by Matt Groening. But again, that's only noticeable on very close inspection.
2d Lt Giddings

PHall

You shouldn't be wearing that scarf when you fly. It's polyester and a fire hazard around your neck.
A wool scarf is authorized and much warmer!

Shdwcaster

Quote from: PHall on December 09, 2019, 07:45:19 pm
You shouldn't be wearing that scarf when you fly. It's polyester and a fire hazard around your neck.
A wool scarf is authorized and much warmer!


At the risk of starting an argument, I don't see that in 39-1. All I see is this on page 97:
"8.2.5. Flight Scarf. (Figure 8.2) A yellow and red CAP command scarf is authorized for wear.
When worn, the scarf will be worn around the neck and tucked into the flight suit. "

Otherwise, yeah, I'd happily stick with a nice, warm, white wool scarf.
2d Lt Giddings

usaf_defender

Please don't wear the scarf.


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Slim

Really, if you're looking to the chicken feet scarf for warmth when it's cold, perhaps you should invest in a $.79 lighter and set it on fire.
It's a very thin piece of cloth that will do absolutely nothing to keep you warm.  Get yourself a good green or black wool scarf and be warm.



Slim

Eclipse

Everyone who is Chuck Yeager may wear a scarf, no one else has enough cool points to pull it off.




PHall

Quote from: Eclipse on December 10, 2019, 02:55:43 am
Everyone who is Chuck Yeager may wear a scarf, no one else has enough cool points to pull it off.




He's not in the airplane yet, is he. In the Air Force two things come off before you board the jet. Rings and scarfs.

But what do I know, just did it for 28-1/2 years...

Eclipse




Shdwcaster

Thanks again for the input. Message received loud and clear, people hate the scarf. I still don't understand why this gets such a visceral reaction (other than that it's not very warm) but okay. Scarf goes into the category of "things worn when Trying Too Hard." Or if you're on Chuck Yeager's level. Which I'm clearly not, and likewise, I'm not growing out a glorious mustache because I'm not Robin Olds either.

I do sometimes wish I could grow my goatee back and still wear the Air Force style uniforms, but that's a derailment for a different thread.
2d Lt Giddings

Eclipse

That scarf, along with a number of uniform items, some that are still around, many that are not,
came about during an era of pretty heavy drama in CAP, at the behest, or at least with the blessing,
of a former National Commander who was sent to the cornfield forever to be Nameless.

Much of it was focused on affectation over function, and / or pushed too hard (arguably)without proper authority,
or USAF review,resulting in "unpleasantness" from a number of vectors.




PHall

Air Force flying units do have scarfs. They spend good money designing and buying them. They're normally worn in the squadron when you're not flying.
But, they're not worn while flying because they're a fire and choking hazard in the airplane. Air Force Safety regs require this.

CAP is different thing altogether. Different rules and different culture.

Shdwcaster

Hmm, these would be two aspects of both Air Force (the scarves) and CAP culture (the drama) of which I was previously unaware. But like I said, I'm a CAP newbie, and thus pretty unaware about past unpleasantness.

Then again, I also try to avoid both politics and drama. I have five kids, three not young enough to join anything, one who's a C/SSgt and is the main reason I joined CAP in the first place, and another who's about to join the Young Marines next January. I get enough drama at home.
2d Lt Giddings

Eclipse

^ You have so much fun and learning ahead of you, both inside and outside CAP.




usaf_defender

Don't let our cynicism deter you. It comes from a good place.   


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supertigerCH

Quote from: Eclipse on December 10, 2019, 02:55:43 am
Everyone who is Chuck Yeager may wear a scarf, no one else has enough cool points to pull it off.




perhaps also the Red Baron 

(for all of you that prefer goggles & biplanes)