1/8 inch border around cloth grade insignia for cadets but not seniors

Started by xyzzy, November 06, 2019, 01:00:04 am

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xyzzy

M39-1 (for example 5.1.1.2) and the ABU wear instructions specify that for the ABU or BDU uniform, cadets must have 1/8 inch of blue showing around the grade insignia, but the size of the border for seniors is unspecified. Why?

Eclipse

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf
CAPM 39-1, Page 71

"5.2.1.4.6. Aviation and Occupational Badges (CAP only). Two Aviation or
Occupational badges embroidered in white on ultramarine blue may be worn sewn to the shirt ½ inch
above the "Civil Air Patrol tape over the left breast pocket. The second badge will be centered ½ inch
above the first badge. Chaplain and CAP aviation badges are mandatory and will always be worn in the
highest position. Not more than a combined total of two of these badges will be worn on the wearer's
left. When more than one CAP aviation badge is authorized, only one will be worn. If chaplain badge is
worn, it is worn in the higher position. Occupational badges (excluding chaplain) are optional. All cloth
insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia.
When placing
multiple insignia in the same area, measure from the insignia-to-insignia not blue to blue. "


Literally the first thing that comes up when you search "cloth in"...



NIN

Its really not hard to figure out that the lack of 1/8" specification in the ABU memoranda is an oversight and that the wear pattern should carry over from BDUs.



Anything else looks crass.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Levi Lockling

As a cadet, I remember one of my C/Maj buddies who took his BDUs(ABUs weren't a thing at that point) to get his C/Maj insignia sewn on, and the place literally just had a thin strip of blue around the perimeter of the C/Maj Lozenge. Looked pretty cool, but definitely not within regulation.

I don't know that my anecdote added anything to the conversation, but it was a fun little memory.
Capt Levi H. Lockling
SSgt, USAF, 1A851J, 41ECS
Charlie flight, NBB 2013

baronet68

Quote from: Levi Lockling on November 06, 2019, 02:01:23 am
As a cadet, I remember one of my C/Maj buddies who took his BDUs(ABUs weren't a thing at that point) to get his C/Maj insignia sewn on, and the place literally just had a thin strip of blue around the perimeter of the C/Maj Lozenge. Looked pretty cool, but definitely not within regulation.

I don't know that my anecdote added anything to the conversation, but it was a fun little memory.


Similar memory... It was standard in my wing (circa 1980's) for cadet officers to eliminate as much blue from their sew-on grade insignia as possible (same for the CAP cutout on the other side of the collar).  Made promotions pretty easy because instead of removing and replacing insignia, you just added another border-less pip/diamond to your collar.  It looked cool and if you had a blue box around your collar insignia you were considered slightly uncool.
Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

Spaceman3750

Quote from: NIN on November 06, 2019, 01:43:27 am
Its really not hard to figure out that the lack of 1/8" specification in the ABU memoranda is an oversight and that the wear pattern should carry over from BDUs.



Anything else looks crass.


Is that insignia crooked? Something about it is making me twitchy :P

arajca

It looks like it's parallel to the leading edge as it should be. That makes off-kilter to the side.

Spaceman3750

Quote from: arajca on November 07, 2019, 01:27:05 am
It looks like it's parallel to the leading edge as it should be. That makes off-kilter to the side.


I had the perspective wrong.

Fester

Quote from: baronet68 on November 06, 2019, 09:07:29 am
Quote from: Levi Lockling on November 06, 2019, 02:01:23 am
As a cadet, I remember one of my C/Maj buddies who took his BDUs(ABUs weren't a thing at that point) to get his C/Maj insignia sewn on, and the place literally just had a thin strip of blue around the perimeter of the C/Maj Lozenge. Looked pretty cool, but definitely not within regulation.

I don't know that my anecdote added anything to the conversation, but it was a fun little memory.


Similar memory... It was standard in my wing (circa 1980's) for cadet officers to eliminate as much blue from their sew-on grade insignia as possible (same for the CAP cutout on the other side of the collar).  Made promotions pretty easy because instead of removing and replacing insignia, you just added another border-less pip/diamond to your collar.  It looked cool and if you had a blue box around your collar insignia you were considered slightly uncool.


So your wing just decided to ignore regulations?  Or did the regulations change between the 80's and '92 when I joined as a cadet?
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

NIN

I think that was an interpretation thing.

(I too saw a cadet WIWAC with the blue cut down around the insignia. It looked both cool and horrifyingly time-consuming at the same time)

It said something like "maximum 1/8 blue showing" or a similar specification, and didn't say that the folded cloth could be a rectangle. Someone decided "well, 1/8" all the way around the insignia fits the bill..."

Technically correct, but completely outside of the normal wear pattern.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

baronet68

Quote from: Fester on November 07, 2019, 07:08:45 am
So your wing just decided to ignore regulations?  Or did the regulations change between the 80's and '92 when I joined as a cadet?


Not saying it was a deliberate "ignoring" of the regulation...

Information used to propagate at a much slower rate and most cadets in that era never even saw a CAP uniform manual until AFTER they had already earned their Mitchell Award.  CAPM 39-1 was included in the "new books" that cadet officers would receive from the NHQ Bookstore about a month after receiving their Mitchell.  If your unit didn't have any cadet officers, the only other copy was in the unit's giant blue binder of regulations.  The BBB (Big Blue Binder) was the squadron's sacred text and maintained by the senior members... a typical cadet couldn't just waltz up and start idly flipping through its pages.  :o

It was more a case of "normalized deviation"...

As NIN states, the manual at that time said that the amount of blue showing could not exceed 1/8".  So, one person trims it close. Someone else sees that and does the same. Another person follows suit.  All the while, nobody corrects it because it's "what someone told them was okay" and if someone did actually look it up, they find it was "within the letter of the law", reinforcing it's legitimacy.  I think it was the 1989 edition of 39-1 that finally specified 1/8" from the widest part of the insignia and not 1/8" from any part of the insignia.
Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

NIN

Quote from: baronet68 on November 07, 2019, 06:45:26 pm
The BBB (Big Blue Binder) was the squadron's sacred text and maintained by the senior members...


Ahh, yes. The "Maxwells"
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

GZCP31

Quote from: NIN on November 07, 2019, 07:59:46 pm
Quote from: baronet68 on November 07, 2019, 06:45:26 pm
The BBB (Big Blue Binder) was the squadron's sacred text and maintained by the senior members...


Ahh, yes. The "Maxwells"


For those that have never seen one. It is 5" thick

Fun to give new cadets and tell them to memorize  >:D
Former OK Wing DCL/DCA Mid 90s, Rejoined after 17 years out.
Capt. Communications-Master
Squadron Deputy Commander, Emergency Services Training Officer,  Professional Development Officer,  Administration Officer, Personnel Officer, Communications Officer and Aerospace Education Officer, Texas Wing DOU