Standards for "Way out" appearances

Started by Hawk200, November 03, 2019, 07:39:39 pm

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PHall

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on November 05, 2019, 11:36:12 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on November 05, 2019, 12:50:08 pm
Quote from: Fester on November 05, 2019, 03:24:51 am
And what is it about that uniqueness that prevents them from being valuable members of our Organization?


The organization has rules and standards. If you do not or will not meet those standards, find another way to serve. They can be the best thing since squeezable ketchup, but if they don't want to conform this isn't the place for them.


I don't think that's really an answer, is it? I understand the regulation says what it does. It says, for example, that someone who has a sleeve tattoo on their arm to the wrist cannot conform to CAP's grooming and appearance standards for either USAF-style or corporate uniforms and therefore that person cannot be a member.

The question posed is: why is that regulation necessary if it excludes people who would otherwise be beneficial to our organization? The answer cannot be an appeal to military standards as the USAF now permits such tattoos (ref. AFI 36-2903).


AFI 36-2903 changed after CAPM 39-1 came out. The CAP manual has not caught up yet.

Fester

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on November 05, 2019, 11:36:12 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on November 05, 2019, 12:50:08 pm
Quote from: Fester on November 05, 2019, 03:24:51 am
And what is it about that uniqueness that prevents them from being valuable members of our Organization?


The organization has rules and standards. If you do not or will not meet those standards, find another way to serve. They can be the best thing since squeezable ketchup, but if they don't want to conform this isn't the place for them.


I don't think that's really an answer, is it? I understand the regulation says what it does. It says, for example, that someone who has a sleeve tattoo on their arm to the wrist cannot conform to CAP's grooming and appearance standards for either USAF-style or corporate uniforms and therefore that person cannot be a member.

The question posed is: why is that regulation necessary if it excludes people who would otherwise be beneficial to our organization? The answer cannot be an appeal to military standards as the USAF now permits such tattoos (ref. AFI 36-2903).


Agreed.  Still looking for an answer to the question.  What GOOD reason do we have to preclude these folks from serving in our organization?  Is someone with sleeves and pink hair incapable of contributing to our mission in a positive manner?
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Luis R. Ramos

If they are not following grooming standards, what assurance do we have they will follow other regulations?
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

CFToaster

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on November 06, 2019, 07:45:19 pm
If they are not following grooming standards, what assurance do we have they will follow other regulations?


I don't think that's the question here; I think we're more addressing pre-existing situations, someone gets sleeves, gauges, piercings, etc. THEN becomes aware of CAP and wants to join.

I'm personally in favor of tearing section 3.3 completely out of the manual. I understand we're compelled to maintain certain appearance standards in exchange for the privilege of wearing the AF style uniforms, but I see no upside to restricting members' expression while they're in Corporates.


Eclipse

Quote from: CFToaster on November 06, 2019, 08:05:32 pmbut I see no upside to restricting members' expression while they're in Corporates.


That's the point, CAP is about conforming to a standard and becoming a part of something bigger then
yourself, not "expressing your individuality".

CAP, as an organizaiton, is already far too personality-centric, which runs counter to any organization
which is supposed to provide standardized training in a standardized environment in order to provide the
ability so scale easily as well as for continuity.



CFToaster

Quote from: Eclipse on November 06, 2019, 08:17:50 pm
Quote from: CFToaster on November 06, 2019, 08:05:32 pmbut I see no upside to restricting members' expression while they're in Corporates.

CAP is about conforming to a standard and becoming a part of something bigger


Noo.... CAP is about Aerospace Education, Emergency Services, and Cadet Programs. None of which require lock-step uniformity, some of which would benefit from some additional diversity....

Eclipse

Quote from: CFToaster on November 06, 2019, 08:32:09 pm
Noo.... CAP is about Aerospace Education, Emergency Services, and Cadet Programs. None of which require lock-step uniformity, some of which would benefit from some additional diversity....


The CP, is, in fact, very much about lock-step conformity, and like it or not, the adults in the program are
responsible for setting the examples.

Good luck telling a cadet they need to shave or get a haircut while you're standing there with a 3-day growth and dreds.



CFToaster

Since when is it a strange concept that we have different standards for full-fledged adults vs. young adults?  There are a whole slew of rights and responsibilities that one comes into when they reach the age of majority. Greater control over one's personal appearance is among them.

(Yes, this is exclusive of 18-21 year old cadets, but that's an edge case.)

arajca

Well, I've been told that I'm not qualified to inspect cadet uniforms (by cadets) because I wear the corporates. Of course, they got upset when I start pointing out the discrepancies they have on their uniforms.

Gunsotsu

Quote from: Eclipse on November 06, 2019, 08:40:21 pm
Good luck telling a cadet they need to shave or get a haircut while you're standing there with a 3-day growth and dreds.


So a CP officer with a beard is in no position to correct a cadet's appearance? Cite please.

JayT

Quote from: Gunsotsu on November 06, 2019, 10:24:16 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on November 06, 2019, 08:40:21 pm
Good luck telling a cadet they need to shave or get a haircut while you're standing there with a 3-day growth and dreds.


So a CP officer with a beard is in no position to correct a cadet's appearance? Cite please.


Big difference between a well groomed beard and stubble.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

Gunsotsu


CAP9907

Well, good thing that there is a Manual that addresses this question...

and we're done.

~9907
21 yrs of service

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