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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadet Promotion Boards are clearly still happening...why?
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Eclipse
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« on: July 10, 2019, 09:32:41 PM »

The term "promotion board" no longer appears in 60-90, having been replaced several years ago
by the Leadership Feedback sessions.

So why are units still holding boards, and under what authority and procedural guidance?

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAPR_601__Cadet_Program_Management__36D2A228D5925.pdf

(See page 27)
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Ozzy
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2019, 10:08:42 PM »

"Local Promotion Practice" perhaps?
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Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
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Fubar
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2019, 05:14:35 AM »

I was hoping the requirement to have recent graduates from TLC in each squadron would help move forward some of these changes, however it seems most of the participants are new in their squadrons and hesitant to "make waves" with the established leadership. I still hear cadets talking about passing promotion boards, which was never the purpose to begin with.
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FalconHatTrick
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2019, 06:11:02 AM »

Well, CAPR 60-1, 5.7.2 states Feedback meetings will operate according to CAPP 60-31, 2.7. When you reference 60-31, 2.7, the heading is Leadership Feedback Meetings and Promotion Boards. The pamphlet is still listing Promotion Boards as a thing with procedures included.

Now do I think that most Squadrons are holding these Feedback sessions, but still calling them Promotion boards, probably.

Now if you're referring to the actual idea of Promotion Boards and needing to "pass" to get promoted, then that's been out to pasture for a while, but could come down to a local policy that just flies under the radar of Wing/Group oversight.  Could also be Fubar's reasoning of new TLC grads not wanting to make waves, but hopefully some leaders that have been in for a while will actually attend TLC and get caught up on some of the new procedures in the Cadet Program. 
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Maj, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2019, 03:52:09 PM »

60-31 essentially restates the verbiage from 60-1, and only mentions the idea of boards, not the procedure or
even a guideline.

Yet we have units all over the place having cadets do "door knock / enter" promo boards
with them standing at attention reciting the oath, or the chain of command (usually incorrectly understood by
the person asking) with the intention of acting as a last-minute "do not pass go, no promo for you" exercise,
and many units are very proud of this, especially the cadets who are allowed to run them.

And worse, in many cases the cadet leaves the board, and it's weeks or longer before they know either way
whether they will be promoted, which IMHO is a direct violation of both the spirit and the regs regarding cadet promotions.

My last tour as CC, promo boards were not done in-face, only documented Leadership Feedback sessions, promo
boards were staff discussions that informed the 60-90. 

To me this would seem to be the intent of the latest revision of the program, yet as with many, many CAP "things",
far too many CC's are absolutely unaware, apathetic, or willfully refusing to change, to the detriment of their cadets.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2019, 03:53:20 PM »

I was hoping the requirement to have recent graduates from TLC in each squadron would help move forward some of these changes, however it seems most of the participants are new in their squadrons and hesitant to "make waves" with the established leadership. I still hear cadets talking about passing promotion boards, which was never the purpose to begin with.

Sadly, people are infinitely creative in regards to  the TLC expectations, in some cases passing around members with TLC
in order to check the box, instead of getting more trained up.
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FalconHatTrick
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2019, 04:09:03 AM »

60-31 essentially restates the verbiage from 60-1, and only mentions the idea of boards, not the procedure or
even a guideline.

Yet we have units all over the place having cadets do "door knock / enter" promo boards
with them standing at attention reciting the oath, or the chain of command (usually incorrectly understood by
the person asking) with the intention of acting as a last-minute "do not pass go, no promo for you" exercise,
and many units are very proud of this, especially the cadets who are allowed to run them.

And worse, in many cases the cadet leaves the board, and it's weeks or longer before they know either way
whether they will be promoted, which IMHO is a direct violation of both the spirit and the regs regarding cadet promotions.

My last tour as CC, promo boards were not done in-face, only documented Leadership Feedback sessions, promo
boards were staff discussions that informed the 60-90. 

To me this would seem to be the intent of the latest revision of the program, yet as with many, many CAP "things",
far too many CC's are absolutely unaware, apathetic, or willfully refusing to change, to the detriment of their cadets.

I'm going to ask for clarification from you then on what you're referencing that there is no procedure.  I'm looking at 60-31, 2.7 (page 22). Also page 2 of the 60-9X feedback forms.  There is a clear and well defined "suggested" procedure for conducting feedback meetings. 

#2 on this procedure is to have the cadet formally report to the Officer(s) conducting the meeting.  #3 is to then tell the cadet if they are getting promoted or not so they can focus on the feedback. Therefore I see no issue with having a "door knock / enter" situation.

Now I don't see any problem with the cadets having to recite the Cadet Oath or Core Values, they should be able to recite them, it's a part of being a cadet in the program. Also asking the cadet who they should be going to resolve issues or questions (chain of command) isn't outside the realm of common sense questions to make sure the newer cadets are feeling comfortable and not feeling trapped. Using those questions as a basis for promoting or retaining a cadet in grade is a little outside the common sense sniff test.

Again, I'm going to seek further clarification, but it sounds like when you were CC, you did feedback sessions without the cadet present and making promotion decisions behind closed doors? That sort of defeats the purpose of the feedback sessions and keeping procedures standard across the board. I'm hoping this is a lack of clarity and not fact.

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Maj, CAP
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2019, 05:58:02 AM »



When the MANDATORY form contains the following features, I'm not surprised:


1. The form contains check boxes at the bottom (implied to be a conclusive result of the meeting - as they are right above where the OIC and the cadet being reviewed counter sign) which state:  "PROMOTION APPROVED" and "SUSTAINED IN GRADE". I can't see how the meeting can be seen as less than a promotion review board given that. Also, see Step 9: "If retaining the cadet in grade, set a date for a subsequent review". Obviously, this is still a Promotion Board in all but name.


2. As noted, Steps 2 and 10 require the cadet to formally report, inclusive of saluting. I can't see how that can NOT be seen as a review board environment.  As an aside, please also remember the holistic approach here: R60-1 Section 8.7.2 provides for Wing and Group level review boards for activities... we should not fail to prepare cadets for these, nor for Academy or college or job interviews.  My own promo board experiences included the knock/enter/report/Oath drill, which I feel well prepared me to stay calm in stress filled engineering job interviews - and I've heard that echoed by countless former cadets who in hindsight appreciated the stress of a formal reporting scenario.


3. On "the cadets who are allowed to run them", both the form and the promulgating reg (through the CAPP) set cadet officer participation as an expectation. Viz: "The evaluator should be a senior member, or a cadet officer working under a senior member’s supervision". My suggested best practice is the CC or CDC, one other code 216 CP officer, and the C/CC or his designee, with a senior member as the presiding officer and the cadet officer as the rating officer (who needs to have completed the forms for candidates before the in person meeting).


4. On inspection of uniforms and the Oath:
Looking at the Cadet Promotions app in eServices, we see:
"Active Participant? (check box)
CAP Oath Completed? (check box)"
Although a review of attendance records can be done off line, the only method to verify that without having the cadet recite the Oath, in person. So that's clearly within scope of a review.

R60-1, 3.1.6. Cadet Uniforms. "Wear of the uniform is an integral part of cadet life (see 1.6.1). Proper wear of the uniform is a pre-requisite for cadet promotion (see 5.2.3)".
A verification review of the uniform and grooming of the cadet under consideration also seems in scope. If not during an in person inspection, when?


So, not to be a complete apologist for people running on using the old terms, but I sure can see why - and that's the procedural guidance I see. Eclipse, I share your point of view regarding trying to move people forward to use the new terms, and the new pubs (e.g. the encampment terms and procedures). We will get there, eventually.


V/r
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2019, 02:00:43 PM »

I think we're nit-picking what we call the feedback session. A performance review is a feedback meeting. A "review" is about looking back at the past. Feedback is reactive in reviewing prior performance to-date, and proactive in providing suggestions and setting goals for the future. Call it whatever you want so long as the integrity and intent of the feedback session is maintained IAW regulations and guidance.

What I still see units do is run trivia sessions during the feedback meeting. I also see units where cadets have taken the tests, done the feedback/board (and were marked to promote), and still don't hit eServices until the day they pin; and if the cadet has to miss the next two weeks of the meeting and can't pin on new insignia, the unit holds them up until the date they swap grade. That really frustrates me.


If we're sticking to the Cadet Staff Handbook, and the 60-90 forms —and I've brought this up before—how is it that the cadet officer or senior member performing the feedback session can tell the cadet if they are sustained in grade (and why) before the Commander provides input?

In our unit, the Commander prefers to click the button in eServices. I know other units have the Deputy Commander for Cadets do it. I know of units where the Commander has zero knowledge of what was discussed in the feedback meeting, and I know of units where the Commanders sits in (whereas in our unit, he does not).
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