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zippy
Recruit

Posts: 49

« on: July 09, 2019, 02:34:45 AM »

Very elderly pilots frequently fly without another pilot on board. Should there be a rule in regard to this?
Is having teenagers take solo flights on CAP planes a good idea?

I am writing this because this is a safety concern of mine, but I am not an expert so I was wondering what other people think. This has been on my mind for quite a while.
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Ozzy
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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2019, 02:57:57 AM »

Very elderly pilots frequently fly without another pilot on board. Should there be a rule in regard to this?

Pilots are given a medical for a reason as well as check rides. If members truely follow the core values of Integrity and Excellence then there would be no problem.

Is having teenagers take solo flights on CAP planes a good idea?

Yes, of course. Why wouldn't it be? They get a ton of training prior to, just like any other pilots in training would, and I would gamble that CAP cadets tend to get more training then others.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2019, 05:38:40 AM »

Very elderly pilots frequently fly without another pilot on board. Should there be a rule in regard to this?
Is having teenagers take solo flights on CAP planes a good idea?

I am writing this because this is a safety concern of mine, but I am not an expert so I was wondering what other people think. This has been on my mind for quite a while.

(After a long absence, “Zippy” seems to have returned with some unusual questions).

Can you define “very elderly?” And, to what entity are you referring when you ask if there should be a rule in regard to this? Who will make that rule?

CAP already has a “rule.” Simply put, pilots must comply with the terms,  conditions and restrictions imposed by Federal Aviation Regulations and by the medical opinions of their medical examiners, along with compliance with CAP regulations.

All student pilots pursuing private pilot certification or higher must fly solo at some point. Several, in fact. They have been doing that in CAP planes, owned or leased, pretty much from the beginning. Age shouldn’t enter into it, other than meeting minimum age to solo. The decision to allow anyone to solo, CAP or otherwise, is made by the CFI after observation of skills, knowledge and abilities.

Your question in itself appears to be an opinion. All you can hope for in return is more opinions. And then what?

If it is a safety concern of yours, I suppose you have a choices: 1). Don’t be a teenager flying in CAP aircraft; 2) If you do manage to get a pilot’s license, stop flying when you become “very elderly.”


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Fester
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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2019, 06:31:50 AM »

I'd prefer any of my cadets in my squadron do their flight training (including flying solo) in a CAP aircraft than any other.  I have more faith in CAP CFI's and in CAP aircraft than I do in any other GA aircraft. 
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2019, 04:30:26 PM »

Why more faith in a CAP aircraft than a GA aircraft?

Are CAP aircraft serviced by CAP-dedicated FBOs? Or are CAP aircraft serviced by the same FBS that service other GA aircraft?

It is possible that you can get a lousy FBO, so just go to the FBO that service CAP...


 >:D


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jeders
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2019, 04:35:52 PM »

Why more faith in a CAP aircraft than a GA aircraft?

Are CAP aircraft serviced by CAP-dedicated FBOs? Or are CAP aircraft serviced by the same FBS that service other GA aircraft?

It is possible that you can get a lousy FBO, so just go to the FBO that service CAP...


 >:D

For starters, no aircraft are serviced by FBOs, they're serviced by certified mechanics, some of whom may also work for an FBO. But that's pedantic.

Unlike your average GA aircraft, CAP aircraft receive not only annual inspections by a certified A&P/IA, but also 100-hr inspections and mid-cycle oil changes. Additionally, all of the work is done by mechanics (due to CAP regulations requiring a $1,000,000 bond) and none of it being done by CAP pilots under authority of the FARs. You're average GA aircraft, on the other hand, MIGHT have an annual inspection, or it might not, you never know.
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Ozzy
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2019, 04:37:12 PM »

Why more faith in a CAP aircraft than a GA aircraft?

Are CAP aircraft serviced by CAP-dedicated FBOs? Or are CAP aircraft serviced by the same FBS that service other GA aircraft?

It is possible that you can get a lousy FBO, so just go to the FBO that service CAP...


 >:D


Maybe it's misplaced but my non-aircrew non-aviation opinion is that CAP has forced inspections and compliance items vs a private owner who, after getting their PPL, doesn't have such oversight or backup besides their own due diligence.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2019, 10:31:45 PM »

Why more faith in a CAP aircraft than a GA aircraft?

Are CAP aircraft serviced by CAP-dedicated FBOs? Or are CAP aircraft serviced by the same FBS that service other GA aircraft?

It is possible that you can get a lousy FBO, so just go to the FBO that service CAP...


 >:D


Maybe it's misplaced but my non-aircrew non-aviation opinion is that CAP has forced inspections and compliance items vs a private owner who, after getting their PPL, doesn't have such oversight or backup besides their own due diligence.

Indeed.

I belong to a Facebook group whose membership is primarily A&Ps, and other folks who work/have worked on aircraft. I see many examples of shoddy GA maintenance that ha been performed by owners, or even less-than-competent mechanics.

I think a preference for shops that do maintenance for/on CAP aircraft is fair.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2019, 12:53:50 AM »

I fly on a lot of airplanes. In my line of work, these range from a clapped-out 182 with all the vacuum instruments placarded, no interior and a jump door to such majesty as a King Air 350 with speed cowlings, and a few things in between.

Some owner-operators I know: I know their maintenance practices and their flying habits, I know what they're willing to do to their airplanes and why. There are a small number of those operators who I will fly on whatever plane they own and put in front of me with few questions asked.

Others? Ehhh. I'm likely to show up early and do a walk around with the pilot under the guise of chatting, but I'm really preflighting.

Why? Trust.

CAP's MX program, like the military, might be a little over the top, but the aircraft are well maintained and in good working order. Do they break? Sure. All planes break. But I want the A&P to catch the catastrophic breakage before it happens.

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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2019, 04:15:02 AM »

Why more faith in a CAP aircraft than a GA aircraft?

Maybe it's misplaced but my non-aircrew non-aviation opinion is that CAP has forced inspections and compliance items vs a private owner who, after getting their PPL, doesn't have such oversight or backup besides their own due diligence.

CAP's MX program, like the military, might be a little over the top, but the aircraft are well maintained and in good working order. Do they break? Sure. All planes break. But I want the A&P to catch the catastrophic breakage before it happens.

Just consider every time you've gotten in a ground vehicle you own and ignored that "one little thing" - tires, oil change,
runs a little rough when it gets hot, a new puddle in the garage, etc.

That's why I'd trust CAP's MX program over the typical private owner or an FBO.
(Now, everyone run to their keyboard and type about "that one time...")
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Spam
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2019, 06:45:38 AM »


Yyyyeah... that one time. Bob, Ima gonna hafta cite CAP maintenance management almost killing me back in the day, so I am a healthy skeptic (and I think that's a good survival trait both personally, corporately, and as a good citizen steward).


I flash back to being a young SM flying right seat on an actual missing aircraft mission in FLWG in July 1991.  CPT Tom Hennessey and I flew 9 hours on mission day 1, looking for the missing (corporate, Marco Island Sqdn) aircraft, and our (corporate, C177RG, Titusville TICO Sqdn.) engine packed up on us on our RTB leg that evening.  We found out after declaring and almost gliding into VRB in IFR weather that the lowest bidder whom the Wing maintenance officer had hired had put the wrong rings in during the fresh engine reassembly. The engine was re boring the cylinders and had packed the new oil filter shut. I heard that they came down like a ton of bricks to fix the sloppy process after that debacle (righteously so, thanks COL Don Cunningham, RIP). Such lapses can and do happen in any organization which grows complacent - commercial, private, or DoD.


So. CAP maintenance just cannot be over the top enough for me. I feel that we've made great progress in that area since 1991 (at least in powered corporate aircraft). Pencil me in with the quote from President Reagan on nuclear arms control: "Trust but Verify". These days, I trust my own cadet sons in our corporate powered aircraft, to address the original threat content, and I trust them with our qualified pilots at any age. At Wing level I receive and read the WIMRS aircraft maintenance discrepancy entries every day, and our MX officer and DO know that as a guy who works in the aerospace engineering field I have on occasion chimed in to ask them for details about specific software updates, placarded equipment failures, etc.  Always good answers. CAP has, I feel, used such processes to stay on top of our fleet maintenance status, and we've worked to attract and retain highly qualified officers to run them. But, its not a one and done, its continual team vigilance and mutual accountability to ensure safety, and we appreciate the time and effort of all those talented volunteers.


Semper Vigilans - Always Vigilant, in my book includes watching out for our flight readiness issues (maintenance, training diligence/currency, IMSAFE and ORM factors, and even the leading indicators of crew hazardous attitudes like uniform compliance). Yet, age in and of itself, to the original question, is NOT a DQ factor per se, young or old.


V/r
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2019, 01:39:48 PM »

As a Sq Commander I unfortunately had to ground a pilot from CAP aircraft.  He was in his 80s.  Still had a medical, was still current and owned and flew his own Cessna 210.  But seeing him fly, seeing his decision making and listening to him struggle with simple ATC instructions was concerning.  One day I was flying at work and heard him coming in to his home airport in his personal Cessna 210 and it was touchy to the point where ATC had to give him vectors and distance call outs to the airport on a crystal clear day to an airport hed flown in and out of for 30 years.  His voice was shaky, he was clearly disoriented.  When it was brought up, he denied the entire incident and said theres nothing wrong with getting vectors to the runway.  Well, true, but not in the manner I witnessed.   
Case by case basis.  If there is a foundation for it, then you may need to address it.  It was a sad conversation that ended with the member telling me where I could stick it, and him leaving CAP.  But I can assure you it was done with the utmost care and respect.  Do we ground someone due to age like the airlines?  No.  Do we make a rule that after age X you have to fly 2 pilot?  No.  Id imagine my scenario could have applied to someone younger who was just a terrible pilot.  But in the case, it was age related and something we had seen develop over time. 
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2019, 06:16:15 AM »

Faith in CAP maintenance of its aircraft is maybe a bit over the top.  It's better than some FBOS, worse than others.  Ditto for CAP instructors.  I recall discussing a CAP CFI with a Squadron Ops Officer.  What's that rule about 1 hour of fuel minimum in the tank when the aircraft lands?  How much fuel does a C182 hold, and what's the fuel burn?  How much fuel was left in the tanks if the line guy pumps 85 gallons after this CFI  and another pilot landed following a full day of 'O' flights?

Ditto for maintenance.  A few years ago CAP contact IA/AMT released a C182 for flight after an annual/100 hour inspection with 12 rivets pulled through a spar on the left horizontal stabilizer.  The skin oil canned very loudly with just a little up/down pressure.  Other examples abound, like a repainted C182 ta flew four years 110 lbs over weight because the UMO, LGM, and sqdrn CO didn't think 'weight changed much'.

Flying is really an exercise in trust.  But, smart pilots or aircrew really ought to verify first, THEN (and onlt then) trust if warranted for each and every flight.
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Fester
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« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2019, 06:27:51 AM »

As a Sq Commander I unfortunately had to ground a pilot from CAP aircraft.  He was in his 80s.  Still had a medical, was still current and owned and flew his own Cessna 210.  But seeing him fly, seeing his decision making and listening to him struggle with simple ATC instructions was concerning.  One day I was flying at work and heard him coming in to his home airport in his personal Cessna 210 and it was touchy to the point where ATC had to give him vectors and distance call outs to the airport on a crystal clear day to an airport hed flown in and out of for 30 years.  His voice was shaky, he was clearly disoriented.  When it was brought up, he denied the entire incident and said theres nothing wrong with getting vectors to the runway.  Well, true, but not in the manner I witnessed.   
Case by case basis.  If there is a foundation for it, then you may need to address it.  It was a sad conversation that ended with the member telling me where I could stick it, and him leaving CAP.  But I can assure you it was done with the utmost care and respect.  Do we ground someone due to age like the airlines?  No.  Do we make a rule that after age X you have to fly 2 pilot?  No.  Id imagine my scenario could have applied to someone younger who was just a terrible pilot.  But in the case, it was age related and something we had seen develop over time.

Don't CAP pilots have to get checked out every year? Sounds like that was a failure on the part of the Check Pilot that passed him on his last check ride.
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Cliff_Chambliss
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« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2019, 12:57:45 PM »

The problem with annual check rides/written tests is that everyone knows whats coming and when.  Same test every year in the same time frame.   I really believe that anyone can psych themselves up to pass any test if they know what when where the test is going to be given.  But sometimes I wonder what the results of annual tests would be across the board if they were administered by outside disinterested evaluators on a no-notice basis.   This is not bashing CAP, but this is across the board.  Peter Pilot flies great the day after the flight review but three weeks later needs 10,000 feet of concrete, calm winds, and temps in the mid 60's to do a soft field landing.   When was the last time you went out and practiced stalls, slow flight, soft/short maximum performance landings just to stay sharp and not prep for a checkride.  When was the last time you checked weather and said "wow, winds are great and across the runway, lets go do crosswind work"? 
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2019, 02:32:24 PM »

As a Sq Commander I unfortunately had to ground a pilot from CAP aircraft.  He was in his 80s.  Still had a medical, was still current and owned and flew his own Cessna 210.  But seeing him fly, seeing his decision making and listening to him struggle with simple ATC instructions was concerning.  One day I was flying at work and heard him coming in to his home airport in his personal Cessna 210 and it was touchy to the point where ATC had to give him vectors and distance call outs to the airport on a crystal clear day to an airport hed flown in and out of for 30 years.  His voice was shaky, he was clearly disoriented.  When it was brought up, he denied the entire incident and said theres nothing wrong with getting vectors to the runway.  Well, true, but not in the manner I witnessed.   
Case by case basis.  If there is a foundation for it, then you may need to address it.  It was a sad conversation that ended with the member telling me where I could stick it, and him leaving CAP.  But I can assure you it was done with the utmost care and respect.  Do we ground someone due to age like the airlines?  No.  Do we make a rule that after age X you have to fly 2 pilot?  No.  Id imagine my scenario could have applied to someone younger who was just a terrible pilot.  But in the case, it was age related and something we had seen develop over time.

Don't CAP pilots have to get checked out every year? Sounds like that was a failure on the part of the Check Pilot that passed him on his last check ride.

If it had been an issue on his checkride, Im sure it would have been addressed.   
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etodd
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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2019, 04:25:35 PM »

Currency is of course a part of it. How many CAP pilots only fly 5 hours a year? Some even less? Too many I'm sure.
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etodd
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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2019, 04:26:24 PM »


If it had been an issue on his checkride, Im sure it would have been addressed.   

If the check pilot was also in his 80s .....  LOL
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2019, 04:28:48 PM »

Aging population not withstanding, there really should be age caps for pilots, especially in CAP.
Most I have known have self-selected to the right seat when they get to the point that they need the kind
of help indicated.

If nothing else, certainly the ORM goes up every year past a certain age.

With that said, statistically this is a non-issue, both in CAP and GA in general.
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etodd
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2019, 11:31:59 PM »

Aging population not withstanding, there really should be age caps for pilots, especially in CAP.

Disagree. I’ve flown with 75 year olds that I was confident with, and then a 50 year old that I don’t think should fly at all. Age discrimination isn’t a good thing. Making sure Check Pilots are doing a good job with F5s is a good thing. Requiring an F5 to be with a Check Pilot outside your Squadron would help, but isn’t practical in many Wings.
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