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i_am_a_politician
Recruit

Posts: 39

« on: April 22, 2019, 06:17:10 PM »

So, I was bored today and I looked up CAPM 39-1 for funsies.  I noticed this post on a CAP website which states

Quote
Question:  Where does cadet officer grade insignia go on the Battle Dress Uniform and the Corporate Field Uniform?

CAPM 39-1 (26 June 2014) states, "5.1.1.2.3. Cadet officers center regular size, full color embroidered insignia on ultramarine blue cloth sewn on the collar one inch from the front of the collar and centered. All insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia. Cadet Colonels and Cadet Captains may wear miniature, embroidered insignia."

Figure A5-6 appears to show the 1" measurement from the edge of the collar to the edge of the blue cloth, which is 1/8" from the insignia. 

However, the measurement is 1" from the front of the collar to the insignia itself, or 7/8" from the front of the collar to the blue cloth.

Future version of CAPM 39-1 will clarify the graphic.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/cadet-blog/2014/06/30/updated-capr-39-1

The words in the manual states

Quote
5.1.1.2.3. Cadet officers center regular size, full color embroidered insignia on
ultramarine blue cloth sewn on the collar one inch from the front of the collar and centered. All insignia
will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia. Cadet Colonels and
Cadet Captains may wear miniature, embroidered insignia.

The graphic, of course, shows something different.

Which one should I use?  I believe it should be the clarification published on the website but I could be wrong.
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C/Capt Politician
Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2019, 07:29:47 PM »

What's the issue? 

The grade is worn in the same place on the ABU, BDU, and CFU, and this looks the same to me.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 09:23:59 PM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


i_am_a_politician
Recruit

Posts: 39

« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2019, 08:05:14 PM »

It looks the same but its a matter of 1/8th of an inch.  Not sure if it will make a big difference either unless you have a big uniform stickler
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SarDragon
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« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2019, 08:48:03 PM »

All measurements are to the embroidery, not the edge of the blue material.
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Dave Bowles
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Eclipse
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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2019, 09:24:28 PM »

All measurements are to the embroidery, not the edge of the blue material.

+1, and it does make a difference you can easily see.
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PHall
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« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2019, 01:04:33 AM »

It looks the same but its a matter of 1/8th of an inch.  Not sure if it will make a big difference either unless you have a big uniform stickler

They emphasize the 1/8th of an inch because there have been many people out there who have either 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch to people who trim right down to the embroidery. It almost looks like the grade insignia was embroidered directly on the collar.
They manual gives you a standard to go by and you are expected to follow that standard.  You know, that integrity thing and all that.
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shuman14
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« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2019, 03:28:01 PM »

This all really comes down to, believe it or not, to the Geneva Convention, or more correctly not following the Convention.

Under the Convention, an Officer is entitled to certain privileges that an Enlistedman is not... but in modern warfare, many countries and non-Government actors don't follow the rules outlined in the Convention and will in fact treat an Officer to harsher treatment (i.e. torture) in an effort to gain the "superior knowledge" of operations that they suspect all Officers should have.

So the reason we have Velcro rank, and before that pin-on Rank, is so that a Colonel can become a Private by a simple pull and throw of the Rank patch/pins.

When they allowed for sew on insignia, they mandated the edge so that you could still get a knife or bayonet out and cut Rank off if you needed to. Which is why direct embroidery to the uniform is not allowed, because you can't get the Rank off in a pinch.

As CAP is a non-combatant part of the Total Air Force, it's really a mote point and as Senior Members tend to hold their Rank much longer than their USAF counterparts it might actually be better if CAP allowed direct embroidery to the uniform... at least for Senior Members. 
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Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
Eclipse
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2019, 04:13:44 PM »

Yes, that would be an excellent idea, literally require that the garment be replaced
every time you get promoted, not to mention locking in a single vendor for all parties
regardless of the style worn.

This would be so much better then just getting rid of the rank grade insignia
or adopting something pin-on which is unique in shape or finish to CAP.

Not to mention that in the context of this thread, and the OP being a cadet, your
assertion that "Senior Members tend to hold their Rank grade much longer than their USAF counterparts.."
is irrelevant.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2019, 06:54:13 AM »

This all really comes down to, believe it or not, to the Geneva Convention, or more correctly not following the Convention.

Under the Convention, an Officer is entitled to certain privileges that an Enlistedman is not... but in modern warfare, many countries and non-Government actors don't follow the rules outlined in the Convention and will in fact treat an Officer to harsher treatment (i.e. torture) in an effort to gain the "superior knowledge" of operations that they suspect all Officers should have.

So the reason we have Velcro rank, and before that pin-on Rank, is so that a Colonel can become a Private by a simple pull and throw of the Rank patch/pins.

When they allowed for sew on insignia, they mandated the edge so that you could still get a knife or bayonet out and cut Rank off if you needed to. Which is why direct embroidery to the uniform is not allowed, because you can't get the Rank off in a pinch.

As CAP is a non-combatant part of the Total Air Force, it's really a mote point and as Senior Members tend to hold their Rank much longer than their USAF counterparts it might actually be better if CAP allowed direct embroidery to the uniform... at least for Senior Members.

Can you provide a citation for any of that, please?


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shuman14
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2019, 01:39:13 PM »

Quote
Can you provide a citation for any of that, please?

Army ROTC lecture, Freshman year of college many moons ago.

Lecture presented MSG Leon Jefferies USA (Ret.)
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Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

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INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
shuman14
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Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2019, 01:46:04 PM »

Quote
literally require

Where did I say "required", I said "be authorized".

Think about if you have a Senior Member who made it to the Grade of Major and knows they are not ever going to progress beyond that grade, saves him a lot of time and effort, if he/she chooses to, to have the insignia embroidered on once and be done with it.

I'm most likely at my highest level of incompetence, the Army will be really desperate if they promote me to full Colonel before I retire... if I could, I'd embroider everything on my OCPs and be done with it.

Unless of course they change uniforms... again.
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Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
PHall
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Posts: 6,618

« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2019, 04:20:43 PM »

Quote
literally require

Where did I say "required", I said "be authorized".

Think about if you have a Senior Member who made it to the Grade of Major and knows they are not ever going to progress beyond that grade, saves him a lot of time and effort, if he/she chooses to, to have the insignia embroidered on once and be done with it.

I'm most likely at my highest level of incompetence, the Army will be really desperate if they promote me to full Colonel before I retire... if I could, I'd embroider everything on my OCPs and be done with it.

Unless of course they change uniforms... again.


Can you point me to the part of AR 670-1 that authorizes grade insignia to be embroidered on any Army uniform? ???
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Larry Mangum
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« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2019, 06:58:06 PM »

Let's get back on topic gentlemen and ladies.
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Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
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shuman14
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« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2019, 08:03:38 PM »

Quote
Can you point me to the part of AR 670-1 that authorizes grade insignia to be embroidered on any Army uniform?

 ::)

Perhaps you should read what I actually wrote, in this hypothetical conversation.

Quote
if I could, I'd embroider everything on my OCPs

[Hypothetical reference is bolded for clarity.]

Embroidered insignia is NOT authorized on the Army uniform (or any US Military Uniform), if it WAS authorized, I'd embroider everything on and call it a day.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 08:13:25 PM by shuman14 » Report to moderator   Logged
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
SarDragon
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Posts: 10,730
Unit: Smoots

« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2019, 06:55:17 AM »

And the snark-fest is done. I believe the question has been adequately answered.
Click.
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Dave Bowles
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: CAPM 39-1 Cadet Officer Utility
 


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