December 05, 2020, 09:44:58 pm

Tech Rating

Started by Danny1310, April 19, 2019, 01:33:51 pm

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Danny1310

I have completed the Items on the Attachment 1 for the Tech Rating. I have submitted the form to three people that are qualified to sign off the form so I can submit it for CC approval. Of the three people I submitted the form and my phone number if they needed to go over the  items before signing off the attachment 1 Not one person has returned the form, replied to the Emails, called or offered to help. I asked my CC to look it over to see if I missed anything. He said I had to have Mission Staff Assistant completed. His view was that the last line on the attachment 1 says you must Begin Training for Mission Safety Officer. To be a Mission Safety Officer, you must have completed and signed off Mission Staff Assistant. I have 16 items signed off under Mission Safety Officer, it shows up under eservices as "Training". Does that not complete the requirement for the Begin Mission Safety Officer component of the tech rating.

This was the only item he said he could find, and though I might now need to get Mission Staff Assistant first. Completing that would require two assigned mission with a mission number. The requirement for the Senior Rating require the completion of Mission Safety Officer. I was hoping for some clarification on the Tech Rating.

Eclipse

April 19, 2019, 02:31:55 pm #1 Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 07:19:42 pm by Eclipse
 You must complete all the tasks and two missons as MSA, then get the qualification approved through the chain by wing.



Ozzy

In order to start training for Mission Safety Officer you do need to have Mission Staff Assistant (MSA) completed as MSA is a prerequisite to begin the training. Just because you have some below tasks completed for qualification doesn't mean you started training in it, you need to have the very top saying you meet the prerequisites completed in order to start a qualification.
Ozyilmaz, MSgt, CAP
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Eclipse

Quote from: Danny1310 on April 19, 2019, 01:33:51 pm
I have completed the Items on the Attachment 1 for the Tech Rating.


BTW - >what< tech rating?  Presumably Safety based on the questions?

If so, then yes, you have more work to do.  Safety is one of the more involved ratings by design.

"8. Begin training as a Mission Safety Officer (MSO)."

The only way to do the above is to have completed the prerequisite of being rated as an MSA.
That's a "before you begin" situation, and then your CC has to approve both the prerequisites are
done and the Fam / Prep.


Quote from: Danny1310 on April 19, 2019, 01:33:51 pm
I have completed the Items on the Attachment 1 for the Tech Rating. I have submitted the form to three people that are qualified to sign off the form so I can submit it for CC approval.


Who are these people?  Are they in your unit or group?

You're supposed to have a specifically-assigned mentor who is a senior or master rated. If you're sending this to people
after the fact, they may have no idea why they are even getting it.

If you don't have a mentor assigned, that's the first step to getting this done.  Discuss this issue with your CC or PDO.



Danny1310

Quote from: Eclipse on April 19, 2019, 07:19:22 pm
Quote from: Danny1310 on April 19, 2019, 01:33:51 pm
I have completed the Items on the Attachment 1 for the Tech Rating.


BTW - >what< tech rating?  Presumably Safety based on the questions?

Yes, the Tech Rating in Safety.

If so, then yes, you have more work to do.  Safety is one of the more involved ratings by design.

"8. Begin training as a Mission Safety Officer (MSO)."

Rather than "Begin Training as a Mission Safety Officer" it would be better to require MSA which is what they are actually wanting since you don't need the MSO until the Senior Rating. So why make it so confusing that you would need to go to MSO to find that you need MSA first. Why not just put it in the list of requirements?

The only way to do the above is to have completed the prerequisite of being rated as an MSA.
That's a "before you begin" situation, and then your CC has to approve both the prerequisites are
done and the Fam / Prep.

And once more useless approvals, first I had to get approval to do the MSA, after that is approved I have to get approval to do the FAM Prep. I guess it doesn't make sense that if I wanted the original approval I might actually want to complete the course. instead I have to wait three ot four days for another approval. No wonder why so many people I talk to have no interest in doing anything in CAP other than attend the meetings. I would really like to know the Senior Member drop out rate after the first year.


Quote from: Danny1310 on April 19, 2019, 01:33:51 pm
I have completed the Items on the Attachment 1 for the Tech Rating. I have submitted the form to three people that are qualified to sign off the form so I can submit it for CC approval.


Who are these people?  Are they in your unit or group?

None are in my unit or group. We have no one qualified with a Safety Rating in the Group. These are people that I was referred to and have emailed them explaining the situation and the help I needed. One didn't reply to the email, one replied he didn't have time to help and the last one said he would help with anything that could be checked of in eservices Qual/ops and has been a great help and will probably do the Attachment 1 when the MSA is completed.

You're supposed to have a specifically-assigned mentor who is a senior or master rated. If you're sending this to people
after the fact, they may have no idea why they are even getting it.

If you don't have a mentor assigned, that's the first step to getting this done.  Discuss this issue with your CC or PDO.


I have not had a mentor assigned for anything I have done in CAP. Most everyone I talked too, have never had a mentor assigned to them. When brought up to the CC the reply is we have no one in the Unit or Group with the Set Skills needed for signoff. I had to reach out to other groups since I last posted on here. All the Senior Members in the Unit are doing two roles. I have Safety and ES. Our PDO Stepped down and now only does AE. I was asked if I would take on PD for the Unit.  ::)

I completed the IG Courses and need to be assigned to two SUI's as a trainee. Sent the request to Wing who forwarded it to one of the teams doing the SUI's. Never heard anything more, reached out three times by way of email to the people it was forwarded to and once more to Wing with no response.

To me, I start to see a pattern emerging within CAP.

Eclipse

April 22, 2019, 04:20:02 am #5 Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 04:23:06 am by Eclipse
Quote from: Danny1310 on April 22, 2019, 04:14:13 am
I completed the IG Courses


Why?
Quote from: Danny1310 on April 22, 2019, 04:14:13 am
and need to be assigned to two SUI's as a trainee. Sent the request to Wing who forwarded it to one of the teams doing the SUI's. Never heard anything more, reached out three times by way of email to the people it was forwarded to and once more to Wing with no response.


In most wings, IGs do not self-select, and rarely is it going to be a new member.

Unless the wing solicited you as an IG / SUI inspector, they aren't likely interested.

Your Unit CC has a lot of work to do in talking to Wing in filling the gaps in his organization.
Good on 'ye for going an trying to find help, but this is his direct problem, not yours, and
as a new member, you should concentrate your efforts on squadron needs, which are apparently
fairly high.

There is a detailed process for everything in CAP, it's all in the curriculum and texts if you're willing to
take the time and read it.

As to the pattern, remember there is no "CAP" per se.  It's all a bunch of volunteers doing the best they
can with limited resources, inconsistent training, and inconsistent leadership.



Danny1310

Reading my reply it could be taken negatively. That is certainly not my intent. I am merely showing my frustrations during my time involved.

Danny1310

Once more a downfall within the LMS system. If CAP doesn't want you to do IG courses and get rating why put them out there to be done. I have better things to do with my time than spend hours doing something for nothing.

CAP9907

Quote from: Danny1310 on April 22, 2019, 04:24:17 am
Once more a downfall within the LMS system. If CAP doesn't want you to do IG courses and get rating why put them out there to be done. I have better things to do with my time than spend hours doing something for nothing.


No offence intended here, but it seems like you have a lot to learn about CAP...  One does not simply stroll into Safety/MSO or IG territory without a clear understanding about CAP and the expectations of those positions. I'm an Asst IG, Senior rated in Safety as well as a MSO and it's taken darn near 15 years to get there...  YMMV.

21 yrs of service

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Phil Hirons, Jr.

I can't speak for other Wing IGs, but I'm looking for experienced people for Inspection Augmentees (IA). People who have served at levels above squadron, one or more Senior / Master ratings or possibly very relevant experience outside CAP.

As someone looking to get your first Tech rating accomplished, you're learning the basics of a position.

As far as the availability of the IG courses on LMS, I could go take the Chaplain courses right now but I don't think I'll get an appointment any time soon.


Eclipse

Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on April 22, 2019, 01:49:41 pm
As far as the availability of the IG courses on LMS, I could go take the Chaplain courses right now but I don't think I'll get an appointment any time soon.


+1 - For the most part every class is available for every member to take and test on.

One day a number of years ago I basically took every test at all three levels "because".  If you've been in
CAP a while most of it is common knowledge / common sense.

The result was me having a few pages in the training tab on eservices, but since many of the ratings
are serialized from a test perspective, I'd have to re take them anyway.



Danny1310

Quote from: CAP9907 on April 22, 2019, 04:43:32 am
Quote from: Danny1310 on April 22, 2019, 04:24:17 am
Once more a downfall within the LMS system. If CAP doesn't want you to do IG courses and get rating why put them out there to be done. I have better things to do with my time than spend hours doing something for nothing.


No offence intended here, but it seems like you have a lot to learn about CAP...  One does not simply stroll into Safety/MSO or IG territory without a clear understanding about CAP and the expectations of those positions. I'm an Asst IG, Senior rated in Safety as well as a MSO and it's taken darn near 15 years to get there...  YMMV.




Let me just say I am not strolling into Safety. I have been in the Safety field for over 38 years. I didn't chose Safety as a track in CAP, I was asked to do it by the Commander to do the Safety Track due to the vast documented experience I hold in many different aspects of Safety. RM and Safety are not exclusive to the Civil Air Patrol.


I believe CAP puts all the courses in LMS to allow people to see all the different tracks that people can go.  Safety, there is the right way, the Air Force way and CAPS way.

There is nothing hard about Safety, it is just learning CAPS way of doing Safety. Which as in every organization leads back to the bureaucracy, which led to my original post. Remember in Safety, there may not be a second chance to prevent an accident or injury.

I too have taken many tests through LMS. Some I found easy and some a little more challenging if it was not material I was readily familiar with. In taking the tests it was a learning experience about different aspects of CAP...some of which I would probably never be remotely interested in. 

TheSkyHornet

I'm in a similar boat.

I've been looking at the Safety Tech Rating for over a year now, and I've had very little feedback on the topic, particularly in regard to finding an OJT mentor.

I was even told by a colleague that some Safety Techs were being given their ratings without the full completion of the actual CAPP 217...waivers for public safety officials, firefighters, etc. I buried myself in the regs to find no such language. I asked HHQ about it, and never received a response. I've reached out to Senior+ rated Safety Officers to talk about getting the mentoring on the track, and it went absolutely no where. I was even told that in order for me to be assigned as the squadron Safety Officer, I need to be actively pursuing the Tech Rating (I haven't found that language either).

At this point, whatever. I forfeit bothering.

Spam

I gave up bothering like that about 20 years ago. Grin.


V/r
Spam

Danny1310

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on April 22, 2019, 08:01:16 pm
I'm in a similar boat.

I've been looking at the Safety Tech Rating for over a year now, and I've had very little feedback on the topic, particularly in regard to finding an OJT mentor.

I was even told by a colleague that some Safety Techs were being given their ratings without the full completion of the actual CAPP 217...waivers for public safety officials, firefighters, etc. I buried myself in the regs to find no such language. I asked HHQ about it, and never received a response. I've reached out to Senior+ rated Safety Officers to talk about getting the mentoring on the track, and it went absolutely no where. I was even told that in order for me to be assigned as the squadron Safety Officer, I need to be actively pursuing the Tech Rating (I haven't found that language either).

At this point, whatever. I forfeit bothering.


Many Public Safety Officials and Fire Fighter probably have it easier at getting the rating than someone that has never had anything to do with safety. Mostly because from the time they enter the field virtually everything they do revolves around the Safety aspect. I am one of those so I know a little about it. My post here should show that it is not just given to you, nor should it be. CAP'S Retention rate has been having problems 20 to 25% of new senior members fail to renew after the first year. 50 to 55 percent of Cadets fail to renew after the first year. Losing a member is not just the loss of the member it is also losing anyone he might tell about the organization. It seems everyone is expected to follow the rules and regulations unless you have been in CAP more than two years. Mentorship in my opinion, is a self-serving interest, a computer and the internet.

PHall

Quote from: Danny1310 on April 22, 2019, 10:33:06 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on April 22, 2019, 08:01:16 pm
I'm in a similar boat.

I've been looking at the Safety Tech Rating for over a year now, and I've had very little feedback on the topic, particularly in regard to finding an OJT mentor.

I was even told by a colleague that some Safety Techs were being given their ratings without the full completion of the actual CAPP 217...waivers for public safety officials, firefighters, etc. I buried myself in the regs to find no such language. I asked HHQ about it, and never received a response. I've reached out to Senior+ rated Safety Officers to talk about getting the mentoring on the track, and it went absolutely no where. I was even told that in order for me to be assigned as the squadron Safety Officer, I need to be actively pursuing the Tech Rating (I haven't found that language either).

At this point, whatever. I forfeit bothering.


Many Public Safety Officials and Fire Fighter probably have it easier at getting the rating than someone that has never had anything to do with safety. Mostly because from the time they enter the field virtually everything they do revolves around the Safety aspect. I am one of those so I know a little about it. My post here should show that it is not just given to you, nor should it be. CAP'S Retention rate has been having problems 20 to 25% of new senior members fail to renew after the first year. 50 to 55 percent of Cadets fail to renew after the first year. Losing a member is not just the loss of the member it is also losing anyone he might tell about the organization. It seems everyone is expected to follow the rules and regulations unless you have been in CAP more than two years. Mentorship in my opinion, is a self-serving interest, a computer and the internet.


The 70-75% retention rate for seniors and 50% retention rate for cadets have been that way for decades. There have been a number of efforts to improve these rates and they usually do improve, for awhile and then they eventually go back to their historical rates.
For the seniors it's usually all of the hoops you have to jump through to get ES qualified that usually makes people stop showing up after 6 to 8 months.
For the cadets we recognize that the cadet program is not for everyone and while it would be nice to have a higher retention rate, it is what it is.
Usually if a cadet goes to encampment in their first year they will renew at least once.

swodog

So I'm at the same point the original poster was at and although I have completed MSA and my commander has approved me to start MSO, the specialty track option states.

Pic one is what I see when someone tries to designate me as a Safety Technician.
Pic 2 is the MSO SQTR that shows I have completed all requirements for MSO except IS300/400 and a second mission.

The original issue (which I did not see anyone answer) is the problem here too.  How did this get solved?

Eclipse




swodog

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2020, 01:22:28 pm
PDFs are 0kb

Well the system won't take pic format, 1st PDF is a pic of the Specialty Track telling me I need to be an MSO trainee.

2nd pic is my MSO SQTR that shows everything green except IS-300/400 and a second mission.

I think the compelling question is what does it take to be a "MSO Trainee" so that I can get technician approved for safety.

jeders

Quote from: swodog on January 06, 2020, 01:33:04 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2020, 01:22:28 pm
PDFs are 0kb

Well the system won't take pic format


...but the PDFs are 0kb, we can't open them.

Quote from: swodog on January 06, 2020, 01:33:04 pm
I think the compelling question is what does it take to be a "MSO Trainee" so that I can get technician approved for safety.


Have all prerequisites and fam/prep training completed and have commander approval for fam prep and advanced training.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse