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Author Topic: CPP Interpretation of Pre-Existing relationship  (Read 1407 times)
i_am_a_politician
Recruit

Posts: 39

« on: April 08, 2019, 03:34:46 AM »

So, Iím nearly transitioning to a senior member (5 months to go).  I have a few Cadet friends that I hang with regularly who wonít turn senior for another year or so.  Would this fall under a ďpre-existing relationshipĒ if I wanted to still spend time with theme (even one on one)?  Would anyone really make a stink out of it if everything we did was appropriate (going bowling or to the mall)?

Iím understanding that this is a pre-existing relationship because 60-2 states the following:

ďNon-romantic relationships between adult leaders and cadets that existed prior to one of the individuals joining CAP (e.g. family, neighbors, coworkers, etc.) are not improper and may continue, including substantial contact outside of CAP activities.Ē

Now, Iím a prelaw student so please excuse me for liking to argue my case here (itís what I love, Iím a big regulations nerd)

1. We have a non-romantic relationship
2. It existed prior to me joining CAP as a Senior Member.  I was a cadet before and joined as a senior member, therefore the relationship existed prior to me joining CAP.

I rest my case.  Please let me know if you have any objections.
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C/Capt Politician
etodd
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Posts: 1,731

« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2019, 03:57:47 AM »

I don't see an issue. Folks in my squadron wouldn't be stalking you at the bowling alley with a camera trying to catch you doing anything inappropriate.  But you'll know your local folks. Squadrons are so different in the personality types included.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO

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Eclipse
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Posts: 30,119

« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2019, 04:13:20 AM »

So, Iím nearly transitioning to a senior member (5 months to go).  I have a few Cadet friends that I hang with regularly who wonít turn senior for another year or so.  Would this fall under a ďpre-existing relationshipĒ if I wanted to still spend time with theme (even one on one)?  Would anyone really make a stink out of it if everything we did was appropriate (going bowling or to the mall)?

Iím understanding that this is a pre-existing relationship because 60-2 states the following:

ďNon-romantic relationships between adult leaders and cadets that existed prior to one of the individuals joining CAP (e.g. family, neighbors, coworkers, etc.) are not improper and may continue, including substantial contact outside of CAP activities.Ē

Now, Iím a prelaw student so please excuse me for liking to argue my case here (itís what I love, Iím a big regulations nerd)

1. We have a non-romantic relationship
2. It existed prior to me joining CAP as a Senior Member.  I was a cadet before and joined as a senior member, therefore the relationship existed prior to me joining CAP.

I rest my case.  Please let me know if you have any objections.

As a pre-law student you should know better then to insert a word in your mind that does not exist in the regulation.
It says "prior to joining" and makes no distinction that the transition to SM allows such relief.

There is a bright line between cadets and seniors for a reason, you would be best off to observe that.
If you choose to ignore this, you do so at the peril of you membership.

At a minimum you should discuss it with your Commander.


 
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Fester
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Posts: 274

« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2019, 04:56:17 AM »

So, Iím nearly transitioning to a senior member (5 months to go).  I have a few Cadet friends that I hang with regularly who wonít turn senior for another year or so.  Would this fall under a ďpre-existing relationshipĒ if I wanted to still spend time with theme (even one on one)?  Would anyone really make a stink out of it if everything we did was appropriate (going bowling or to the mall)?

Iím understanding that this is a pre-existing relationship because 60-2 states the following:

ďNon-romantic relationships between adult leaders and cadets that existed prior to one of the individuals joining CAP (e.g. family, neighbors, coworkers, etc.) are not improper and may continue, including substantial contact outside of CAP activities.Ē

Now, Iím a prelaw student so please excuse me for liking to argue my case here (itís what I love, Iím a big regulations nerd)

1. We have a non-romantic relationship
2. It existed prior to me joining CAP as a Senior Member.  I was a cadet before and joined as a senior member, therefore the relationship existed prior to me joining CAP.

I rest my case.  Please let me know if you have any objections.

As a pre-law student you should know better then to insert a word in your mind that does not exist in the regulation.
It says "prior to joining" and makes no distinction that the transition to SM allows such relief.

There is a bright line between cadets and seniors for a reason, you would be best off to observe that.
If you choose to ignore this, you do so at the peril of you membership.

At a minimum you should discuss it with your Commander.

Eclipse is correct.  You added a word to the regulation which does not exist.

Beyond that, as a former cadet turned Dark Side... I would say that the most basic unwritten rule when it comes to CPP is the easiest to follow.  NEVER put yourself in a position where the accusation or even the appearance can be made.  EVER.
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1stLt, CAP
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Eaker - 1996
i_am_a_politician
Recruit

Posts: 39

« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2019, 06:42:41 AM »

Oops.  I read the regs half awake and posted half awake.  I didnít even clarify that I have taken pre-law classes and not as a major.  Whoops.

Thanks all for clarification and advice regarding this topic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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C/Capt Politician
MSG Mac
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Posts: 2,039
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2019, 07:38:05 AM »

Heard this at NSC.

Wing Commander had two cadets who had a relationship. Male went turned Senior maintained the relationship. Both were counseled about CPP and the consequences of the relationship. Promised to stop until the female , who was taking her Spaatz test, turned Senior Member. Turns out they got an apartment and moved in together, told Wing CC, that they were both adults and it was no one's business. Male was terminated for cause, female was allowed to get her Spaatz Award, but was not allowed to renew her membership.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
PHall
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Posts: 6,618

« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2019, 03:59:54 PM »

So, Iím nearly transitioning to a senior member (5 months to go).  I have a few Cadet friends that I hang with regularly who wonít turn senior for another year or so.  Would this fall under a ďpre-existing relationshipĒ if I wanted to still spend time with theme (even one on one)?  Would anyone really make a stink out of it if everything we did was appropriate (going bowling or to the mall)?

Iím understanding that this is a pre-existing relationship because 60-2 states the following:

ďNon-romantic relationships between adult leaders and cadets that existed prior to one of the individuals joining CAP (e.g. family, neighbors, coworkers, etc.) are not improper and may continue, including substantial contact outside of CAP activities.Ē

Now, Iím a prelaw student so please excuse me for liking to argue my case here (itís what I love, Iím a big regulations nerd)

1. We have a non-romantic relationship
2. It existed prior to me joining CAP as a Senior Member.  I was a cadet before and joined as a senior member, therefore the relationship existed prior to me joining CAP.

This is the reason why taking a little break from CAP is a good idea for some people.
It makes the transition a little easier. And then there's the folks who have no trouble making the transition.
It's pretty much a case by case thing.

I rest my case.  Please let me know if you have any objections.

As a pre-law student you should know better then to insert a word in your mind that does not exist in the regulation.
It says "prior to joining" and makes no distinction that the transition to SM allows such relief.

There is a bright line between cadets and seniors for a reason, you would be best off to observe that.
If you choose to ignore this, you do so at the peril of you membership.

At a minimum you should discuss it with your Commander.

Eclipse is correct.  You added a word to the regulation which does not exist.

Beyond that, as a former cadet turned Dark Side... I would say that the most basic unwritten rule when it comes to CPP is the easiest to follow.  NEVER put yourself in a position where the accusation or even the appearance can be made.  EVER.

This is the reason some people need to take a break from the cadet program after they turn senior, they have trouble making the transition.
On the other hand, some people have no trouble at all making the transition.
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coudano
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Posts: 1,149

« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2019, 01:38:06 AM »

female was allowed to get her Spaatz Award

That's benevolent...
Probably not under my watch.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,834

« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2019, 04:50:56 PM »

female was allowed to get her Spaatz Award

That's benevolent...
Probably not under my watch.

Right?

Sounds like bias in there...
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EMT-83
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Posts: 1,899

« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2019, 07:21:06 PM »

I have no problem with a senior member being held to a higher standard, and receive harsher punishment, than a cadet.
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Holding Pattern
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Posts: 1,444
Unit: Worry

« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2019, 08:10:03 PM »

female was allowed to get her Spaatz Award

That's benevolent...
Probably not under my watch.

Right?

Sounds like bias in there...

A SM should be held to a higher standard vs a cadet.  That's a good bias to have.
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JeffDG
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Posts: 3,179

« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2019, 08:18:16 PM »

but was not allowed to renew her membership.
And how was that accomplished within current regulations?

You can terminate someone for misconduct, and then they need a waiver to rejoin, or you don't.  There's no provision in the regulations to prohibit a member from renewing their membership.
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SarDragon
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Posts: 10,730
Unit: Smoots

« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2019, 01:53:09 AM »

But there is a provision to terminate cadet membership for misconduct.

Quote from: CAPR 35-3
d. Misconduct. Misconduct would include, but is not limited to:
(1) Conduct unbecoming a member of CAP.
(2) Making a false statement to or concerning CAP.
(3) Serious or willful violations of CAP regulations or directives.
(4) Failure to obey rules, regulations and orders of higher authority.
(5) Insubordination.
(6) Any other conduct, action or incident which violates the policy set forth in paragraph 1 of this regulation, provided the reason for termination is clearly stated in the letter of notification.

Flagging for non-renewal is as good as a 2b.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
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NovemberWhiskey
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2019, 02:37:06 AM »

Flagging for non-renewal is as good as a 2b.
I seem to remember reading that "non-renewal of membership" was a disciplinary option way back in the day, but it no longer is. If I remember correctly, there was a CAPF 2C for that purpose.

As you say, if the behavior merits termination of membership, why wait?
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SarDragon
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2019, 08:25:16 AM »

Flagging for non-renewal is as good as a 2b.
I seem to remember reading that "non-renewal of membership" was a disciplinary option way back in the day, but it no longer is. If I remember correctly, there was a CAPF 2C for that purpose.

As you say, if the behavior merits termination of membership, why wait?

That form went away a bunch of years ago, and I don't recall why.
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Dave Bowles
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AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
MSG Mac
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Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2019, 10:53:48 AM »

I think because the form was redundant. Non-renewable is still an option, just send notification to NHQ and the individual that their membership is not to be renewed. Make sure the notice gets to NHQ before an annual renewal notice is received and make sure higher HQ is in the loop. Also have your Unit Membership Committee formally meet on this matter.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 11:00:39 AM by MSG Mac » Report to moderator   Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
JeffDG
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Posts: 3,179

« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2019, 01:03:20 PM »

But there is a provision to terminate cadet membership for misconduct.

Quote from: CAPR 35-3
d. Misconduct. Misconduct would include, but is not limited to:
(1) Conduct unbecoming a member of CAP.
(2) Making a false statement to or concerning CAP.
(3) Serious or willful violations of CAP regulations or directives.
(4) Failure to obey rules, regulations and orders of higher authority.
(5) Insubordination.
(6) Any other conduct, action or incident which violates the policy set forth in paragraph 1 of this regulation, provided the reason for termination is clearly stated in the letter of notification.

Flagging for non-renewal is as good as a 2b.
If you terminate for misconduct, then terminate for misconduct.  "Flagging for non-renewal" is not an option in the regulations, and is a "back door" 2B that bypasses a member's opportunity to challenge the action and violates their rights to due process as laid out in the regulations.
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JeffDG
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Posts: 3,179

« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2019, 01:04:57 PM »

I think because the form was redundant. Non-renewable is still an option, just send notification to NHQ and the individual that their membership is not to be renewed. Make sure the notice gets to NHQ before an annual renewal notice is received and make sure higher HQ is in the loop. Also have your Unit Membership Committee formally meet on this matter.
It shouldn't be an option.

We have a process to terminate membership.  Members have a right to a hearing and to challenge accusations when such an action is proposed.  Non-renewal is a way to eliminate a member's due process rights as provided to them in the regulations, and is a cowardly way to terminate a member.
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Larry Mangum
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Posts: 696

« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2019, 01:58:29 PM »

The topic has drifted, so I think we are done here.
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Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: CPP Interpretation of Pre-Existing relationship
 


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