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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant Rank
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Author Topic: Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant Rank  (Read 1756 times)
Jim Lahaie
Recruit

Posts: 18
Unit: GLR-IN-211

« on: April 08, 2019, 01:17:56 AM »

Hey, friends, just wondering why the CAP hasn't implemented the position of C/CCMSGT into our grade system. Seems kinda redundant to not have it, since most squadrons need that gateway of info between enlisted and officer even at the wing level. Answer?

- C/TSgt Jim 'Jimbobarooni" Lahaie
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Jim Lahaie
Cadet Master Sergeant, CAP
Recruiting & Retention NCO, LCCS
"Both laziness and greatness can be found equally distributed from E-1 all the way to O-10"
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,368

« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2019, 01:34:33 AM »

There are no cadet positions at the wing level. What information is needed that cannot be passed between cadet officers and cadet enlisted at the unit level via the existing structure?
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Jim Lahaie
Recruit

Posts: 18
Unit: GLR-IN-211

« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2019, 01:39:16 AM »

Uniform alterations, regulations that enlisted think are bogus, corrupt officers that wing need to know about, so on and so forth.

There are some things that enlisted-men see MUCH differently from officers that go unsaid, like changing to the ABU a few years back. The idea first came from an enlisted CAC rep, but never made it to the big leagues until 10 years later. Wheeze.
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Jim Lahaie
Cadet Master Sergeant, CAP
Recruiting & Retention NCO, LCCS
"Both laziness and greatness can be found equally distributed from E-1 all the way to O-10"
JayT
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Posts: 1,345

« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2019, 02:00:36 AM »

Uniform alterations, regulations that enlisted think are bogus, corrupt officers that wing need to know about, so on and so forth.

There are some things that enlisted-men see MUCH differently from officers that go unsaid, like changing to the ABU a few years back. The idea first came from an enlisted CAC rep, but never made it to the big leagues until 10 years later. Wheeze.

Oh boy.

There is no such thing as "enlisted" cadets. You are simply experiencing different levels of a program designed to mimic real world corporate or military structure in a compressed time. The goal of the cadet program is to finish it, not pretend you're some sort of super sergeant after a few hundred hours of experience.

Or aa I suspect, you're a troll.
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"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."
arajca
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Posts: 4,368

« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2019, 02:10:42 AM »

Uniform alterations, regulations that enlisted think are bogus, corrupt officers that wing need to know about, so on and so forth.

There are some things that enlisted-men see MUCH differently from officers that go unsaid, like changing to the ABU a few years back. The idea first came from an enlisted CAC rep, but never made it to the big leagues until 10 years later. Wheeze.
All of that is chain of command stuff. Some regs that the field (cadets & seniors) think are bogus, have been implemented due to laws and legal issues.The other option is CAC, whose job it is to provide a cadet channel to the appropriate command level.

As for the ABU, or other uniform changes, that requires USAF approval, not CAP. In particular, when the DoD regs regarding who can wear it were written, an exemption for non-military personnel wearing them was not provided. This was necessary due to some of the properties of the fabric.
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SarDragon
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Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2019, 03:26:07 AM »

Hey, friends, just wondering why the CAP hasn't implemented the position of C/CCMSGT into our grade system. Seems kinda redundant to not have it, since most squadrons need that gateway of info between enlisted and officer even at the wing level. Answer?

- C/TSgt Jim 'Jimbobarooni" Lahaie

redundant - You used that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. What is redundant about a "missing" position?

Here's what I got from Wiktionary:

redundant:
    Superfluous; exceeding what is necessary.
    (of words, writing, etc) Repetitive or needlessly wordy.
    (chiefly Britain, New Zealand, Australia) Dismissed from employment because no longer needed.
    Duplicating or able to duplicate the function of another component of a system, providing backup in the event the other component fails.

Aside from that, you are correct that it is a position, not a grade. Therefore, it doesn't need to be a part of the grade system, any more than Cadet Commander needs to be a part thereof.

In reality, the position doesn't really fit into the cadet program. The functions that go with RealMilitary™ Command Chiefs are closer to the duties of the CAC - advisors to commanders.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Slim
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Posts: 603

« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2019, 03:59:13 AM »

Blip........blip........blip........blip....
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Slim
OldGuy
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Unit: TBKS

« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2019, 04:20:03 AM »

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I was the "All City" Cadet Command Sergeant Major in the Los Angeles JROTC Corps of Cadets. Still have the epaulets. That  was a "Brigade" level position in a world of Cadet "Battalions" (school formations, similar to our "Groups"), so that "All City Staff" was the sort of equal to our "Wing" structures. Sort of, similar to our Wing CAC. Just as useless but I did get a massive yellow cord that we called "Chicken Guts" to wear. No duties, no job except to show up for an annual "photo op"!
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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2019, 04:28:40 AM »

Uniform alterations, regulations that enlisted think are bogus, corrupt officers that wing need to know about, so on and so forth.

Seriously, no idea where to even start with that.  There is 100% zero distinction between officers and NCOs in
a CAP context for adults, and for cadets it is simply a very short lesson in "pointers vs. shooters" as they move up the
grades.

Few cadets stay in the grades long enough to get more then an inkling of the "NCO vs. officer" paradigm,
and few CAP units have the scale to provide those opportunities, never mind actually try to implement them.

There are some things that enlisted-men see MUCH differently from officers that go unsaid, like changing to the ABU a few years back. The idea first came from an enlisted CAC rep, but never made it to the big leagues until 10 years later. Wheeze.

You really believe that the idea to change to ABUs started in a CAC?

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MSG Mac
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Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2019, 07:25:32 AM »

Why do you keep using the term "Enlisted Cadet"  There is no such grade in CAP, Never has been, never will be.
There is no reason to have a Cadet Command Chief, because as pointed out by a previous poster, there  no cadet positions at the Group, Wing, Region, or National Levels.
As for the "Experience of the Cadet NCO", every Cadet Officer has had that experience 
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Jim Lahaie
Recruit

Posts: 18
Unit: GLR-IN-211

« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2019, 05:22:29 PM »

Enlisted cadets, as in the grades of Cadet Airman Basic to Cadet Chief Master Sergeant (Ach eight). It is a widely used blanket statement that defines lower-level airmen and NCOs. I see a lot of people saying that 'cadet enlisted' do not exist; with that logic, I guess you could say that 'cadet officers' don't exist either. And no, I'm not trolling, didn't even give off that vibe. Others, thanks for answering. Now, back to the question please, mmmm-kay?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 05:27:01 PM by Jim Lahaie » Report to moderator   Logged
Jim Lahaie
Cadet Master Sergeant, CAP
Recruiting & Retention NCO, LCCS
"Both laziness and greatness can be found equally distributed from E-1 all the way to O-10"
JayT
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,345

« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2019, 05:45:30 PM »

Enlisted cadets, as in the grades of Cadet Airman Basic to Cadet Chief Master Sergeant (Ach eight). It is a widely used blanket statement that defines lower-level airmen and NCOs. I see a lot of people saying that 'cadet enlisted' do not exist; with that logic, I guess you could say that 'cadet officers' don't exist either. And no, I'm not trolling, didn't even give off that vibe. Others, thanks for answering. Now, back to the question please, mmmm-kay?

Again, the goal of the program is to finish the program. Creating a "Command Chief" has no place in the structure or program.
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"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."
TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,748

« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2019, 07:04:36 PM »

Echoing the remarks from the previous comments---

The grades are C/E-1 through C/E-9, then C/O-1. The intent is to prepare a cadet to progress from C/E-1 to C/O-1.

So when you hit C/CMSgt, you hit C/E-9. You don't need to go into other C/E-9 posts since it's time to transition to cadet officer grades. Honestly, I don't even know why we're rocking two C/CMSgts. But that's a separate topic.

Squadron First Sergeants are C/MSgts through C/CMSgts. That's the end of the First Sergeant track. Command Chiefs aren't First Sergeants; different duty altogether.

Duty assignment (First Sergeant, Command Chief) is not the same as grade, despite grade being the basis for holding the position. Command Chief is above a squadron level. Cadets are only assigned to Squadrons and Flights. So Cadet Command Chief isn't a thing in the cadet world due to that.
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Capmonkey
Forum Regular

Posts: 161

« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2019, 07:41:35 PM »

The only time I've ever heard of a Cadet Command Chief is at encampments, and they're the POC for all NCO's... I still don't agree with the position.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2019, 08:03:00 PM »

I still don't agree with the position.

Why's that?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,822

« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2019, 08:21:31 PM »

I still don't agree with the position.

Why's that?

Because that's not a thing that exists, nor is allowed to exist?
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Capmonkey
Forum Regular

Posts: 161

« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2019, 09:15:59 PM »

I just don't see the usefulness of the position at an encampment. NCO's are logically going to be Line or Support Staff. The purpose of Flight Commanders or C/OIC's are to train their subordinates. C/Command Chief is just a glorified POC for all NCO's, yet they already have a dedicated trainer. I don't know if that makes any sense. But I agree. It's not a position in 20-1. I just don't see the point is all.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2019, 01:06:58 AM »

I still don't agree with the position.

Why's that?

Because that's not a thing that exists, nor is allowed to exist?

Uh, yeah, it is allowed to exist at an Encampment.

I just don't see the usefulness of the position at an encampment. NCO's are logically going to be Line or Support Staff. The purpose of Flight Commanders or C/OIC's are to train their subordinates. C/Command Chief is just a glorified POC for all NCO's, yet they already have a dedicated trainer. I don't know if that makes any sense. But I agree. It's not a position in 20-1. I just don't see the point is all.

You could make the argument that a First Sergeant doesn't need to exist, if the trainers train their direct subordinates (as nobody reports to the First Sergeant). Nobody reports to the squadron XO either.

Command Chiefs at Encampment can absolutely have a role.

The Encampment guide literally says to tailor the org chart to the specific Encampment, just as you do for squadrons.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2019, 03:10:53 AM »

I still don't agree with the position.

Why's that?

Because that's not a thing that exists, nor is allowed to exist?

Uh, yeah, it is allowed to exist at an Encampment.

Strongly non-concur.

The encampment program has very specific roles and titles, and C/CCMSGT isn't one of them.

CAPP 60-70 Page 16:
"4.1 Organizational Structure
The encampment is a Group-sized organization in all but the smallest wings’ encampments, where the
encampment may operate as a squadron. Accordingly, a Cadet Training Group (CTG) is comprised of two
or more squadrons. A Cadet Training Squadron (CTS) consists of two or more flights. Encampments will
operate using the traditional, military-style “line” and “staff” organizational model, similar to what is
depicted in Figure 4.1 on page 19
; an incident command system model is not authorized for encampments"




There is allowance for adjustment to the above (i.e. 1 SQD vs. 2, what cadet support staff to use, etc.).
There is none for making up titles out of whole cloth, or worse creating grade insignia for them.

As indicated the encampment is a Group model, so the SQD First Shirts would be the highest NCOs in that
model.

Further to this:

CAPP 60-70, Page 3:
"b. Air Force Credentialing & Supplements. The encampment is the cadets’ major introduction to Air
Force service traditions and career opportunities, and is pre-requisite for the Mitchell Award, whose recipients
are eligible to enlist in the Air Force at the grade of E-3. Therefore, the Air Force, through CAP-USAF,
is a key stakeholder of the encampment program. CAP will coordinate all significant revisions to the encampment
program with CAP-USAF before enacting any changes. Accordingly, encampments may issue operating instructions,
handbooks, training materials, etc., that amplify this document’s guidance, but will not
issue supplements that contradict or lessen any standards set by this publication
.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,822

« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2019, 03:16:27 AM »

Now, with the above posted, I would ask further under what theory of experience or training would
a respective cadet be considered "qualified" to be a C/CCMSGT, at an encampment, a wing, or otherwise?
By the time they went through even the most reasonable selection process they wouldn't be C/Chiefs anymore.

At >most< a properly progressing cadet is a C/Chief for what, 6 months?  And during that time they
are not receiving any training, nor garnering any experience on "managing managers" in the way a
Super Chief does.

They are no different in any perspective then any other C/Chief, and you can't even site experience
as a properly progressing C/Chief won't be a C/Chief next year, and one who is certainly isn't showing himself
to be upholding the oath, or to be executing above and beyond.

Even moreso, being a First Shirt at most encampments is as much about timing as anything else.
I'd say the majority of them over the years in my experience have been promoting at or right after encampment,
or the timing simply didn't work at all.  So now you'd have the encampment program offering a role that
would actively encourage the delay of cadet progression?



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