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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: What age do you think a cadet should be to get their Mitchell?
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The Chief of the Mountains
Recruit

Posts: 12

« on: March 25, 2019, 07:43:44 PM »

I am curious to know what age everyone thinks a cadet should be to get their Mitchell award. Please post your answer below.
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C/CMSgt
Safety NCO
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time With Silver Clasp
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Posts: 30,119

« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2019, 07:45:15 PM »

I would say somewhere between 13 and 20.99726027397 sounds about right.

A cadet who joins at 12 and is reasonably active should be looking for Mitchell by about 15 based on S2D.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,730
Unit: Smoots

« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2019, 08:39:26 PM »

That depends mostly on the individual. Some are more than ready at 14, others aren't really ready at 18 or 18. Maturity counts for a lot, as do drive and focus.

I got mine at 17 or 18, but wasn't really ready. The system, such that it was back then, let it happen.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2019, 08:46:26 PM »

I would say it still does.  CC's are far too quick to click approve for cadets racing through the
program, and in a smaller squadron without leadership opportunities, a lot of cadets are just punching the
ticket, never understanding what it really is to be an NCO or officer.

And this doesn't even take into account the absentee cadets who just show up to test and then leave.
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Fester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 274

« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2019, 04:58:17 AM »

I would say somewhere between 13 and 20.99726027397 sounds about right.

A cadet who joins at 12 and is reasonably active should be looking for Mitchell by about 15 based on S2D.

A cadet who joins at 12 should be aiming for the Mitchell long before 15.  A cadet who joins at 12 who is abiding by what is expected of them and that is abiding by the cadet oath ("attend meetings regularly" and "advance my education and training rapidly") should be expecting to receive their Mitchell before their 14th birthday.  Considering all of Phase I and Phase 2 should take just under 19 months.
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1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Eaker - 1996
Fester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 274

« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2019, 05:00:13 AM »

I'd also be curious as to what reputable grounds a CC has to deny someone a promotion based on their "maturity level."  Maturity level isn't a requirement in any of the regs regarding cadet promotions.  I would hope Commanders would abide by EXACTLY what is laid out in the regulations as to what IS expected for each promotion.
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1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Eaker - 1996
SarDragon
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Unit: Smoots

« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2019, 05:37:50 AM »

I'd also be curious as to what reputable grounds a CC has to deny someone a promotion based on their "maturity level."  Maturity level isn't a requirement in any of the regs regarding cadet promotions.  I would hope Commanders would abide by EXACTLY what is laid out in the regulations as to what IS expected for each promotion.

I think it is the commander's responsibility to ensure that a cadet NCO can really perform cadet NCO duties, and the same for cadet officers. Not everyone can, same as the real world.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Fester
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Posts: 274

« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2019, 05:46:10 AM »

I'd also be curious as to what reputable grounds a CC has to deny someone a promotion based on their "maturity level."  Maturity level isn't a requirement in any of the regs regarding cadet promotions.  I would hope Commanders would abide by EXACTLY what is laid out in the regulations as to what IS expected for each promotion.

I think it is the commander's responsibility to ensure that a cadet NCO can really perform cadet NCO duties, and the same for cadet officers. Not everyone can, same as the real world.

I absolutely disagree.  There should be no room for judgement calls like this for promotions within the Cadet Program.  That simply sets up far too many possible outcomes... personality clashes, favoritism, etc...

Our regulations are crystal clear about what is expected for progression through the Cadet Program.  It is NOT up to local commanders to add their two cents to these requirements.  And these requirements say absolutely nothing about "maturity" level or whether or not a cadet can perform "cadet NCO duties" or "cadet officer duties."

From 60-1:

5.2. Cadet Promotion System.
5.2.1. Promotions Authority. Advancement, and the promotions in grade that accompany it, become
official when the squadron commander (or designee) endorses the cadet’s record in the Cadet Promotions
Application in eServices. In most instances, cadets receive a promotion in grade when completing a new
achievement or award (see CAPVA 60-100).
5.2.2. Cadet Grade. The only grades authorized are those shown in CAPVA 60-100. Temporary
promotions or demotions are not authorized, except per the demotion process of 3.5. Cadets will wear
their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP activity.
5.2.3. General Advancement Pre-Requisites. In addition to fulfilling leadership, aerospace, fitness,
and character requirements, during each achievement or milestone award the cadet must (1) be a current
cadet member of CAP, (2) possess a CAP uniform and wear it properly, (3) have recited the Cadet Oath
from memory (see 1.7), and (4) participate actively in unit meetings (see 3.3.1).
5.2.4. Milestone Award Certificates. A special award certificate recognizes cadets who earn milestone awards. CAP/DP automatically provides Mitchell, Earhart, Eaker, and Spaatz certificates to the unit.
Units print the Wright Brothers certificate on demand via eServices.
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1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Eaker - 1996
Fester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 274

« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2019, 05:51:52 AM »

And, no, "....when the squadron commander (or designee) endorses the cadet’s record..." isn't where the Commander's opinion comes into play.  It is simply where the CC endorses whether the REQUIRED portions of the achievement have been met or not.
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1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Eaker - 1996
Mitchell 1969
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Posts: 936
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2019, 06:41:55 AM »

I’ve always been comfortable with age 16 as a minimum. Just my opinion based on observations and experience. Yes, there are exceptions, but I’ve never seen a 14 year old Mitchell awardee who looks comfortable in the role and who is taken “actual seriously” by other cadets, as opposed to “regulation seriously.”


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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Fester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 274

« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2019, 07:06:31 AM »

Again, there is no "minimum age" in the regulations.  And we (Seniors and Commanders) should be abiding by the regulations.

I received my Mitchell at the age of 14 years, 5 months.  I also had attended 3 encampments and numerous large Wing Activities by that point.  I was very comfortable in my role and was taken very seriously by other cadets.  By the age of 16 1/2 years, I had received my Eaker, was about to serve as the Cadet Commander at one of the largest Encampments in the nation, was Vice Chair of the Wing CAC in one of the largest Wings and about to be elected as Chair. I also had 5 Encampments and a Solo Encampment (precursor to Powered Flight Acadamies) under my belt.  If there would have been a "minimum age" requirement for the Mitchell, I would have lost interest and ended my CAP career by then.
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1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Eaker - 1996
NovemberWhiskey
Member

Posts: 63
Unit: NER-NY-301

« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2019, 10:44:34 AM »

I absolutely disagree.  There should be no room for judgement calls like this for promotions within the Cadet Program.  That simply sets up far too many possible outcomes... personality clashes, favoritism, etc...

The part of the requirement which is most discretionary is the section on "leadership expectations". To quote from CAPR60-1:

"5.7. Leadership Development & Promotions. The “Leadership Expectations” shown in CAPVA 60-100 outlines in broad terms what level of leadership skill the cadet must be demonstrating during each phase of the Cadet Program. Commanders will use those goals as a guideline (not a definitive, absolute list of required skills) when making promotion decisions and mentoring cadets. By approving a promotion, the commander is attesting to the cadet’s ability to accept the increased responsibilities that accompany the promotion."

You might want to take a look at the online TLC Basic pre-course which also covers this. It makes it absolutely clear that it is the responsibility of commanders to consider the actual performance (vs. academic achievement) of cadets in leadership when making the promotion decision, and that it is appropriate to sustain a cadet in grade even if all testing is passed but the practical attainment in leadership is insufficient.

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lordmonar
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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2019, 11:55:17 AM »

I am curious to know what age everyone thinks a cadet should be to get their Mitchell award. Please post your answer below.
As soon as they are ready.   Age has very little to do with their ability to lead at the Mitchell level.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
The Chief of the Mountains
Recruit

Posts: 12

« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2019, 04:47:23 PM »

I also feel that the cadet should earn their Mitchell as soon as they feel ready, I don't think that a specific age matters as i am 13 and getting ready to go for my Mitchell Award.
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C/CMSgt
Safety NCO
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,730
Unit: Smoots

« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2019, 07:28:35 PM »

I absolutely disagree.  There should be no room for judgement calls like this for promotions within the Cadet Program.  That simply sets up far too many possible outcomes... personality clashes, favoritism, etc...

The part of the requirement which is most discretionary is the section on "leadership expectations". To quote from CAPR60-1:

"5.7. Leadership Development & Promotions. The “Leadership Expectations” shown in CAPVA 60-100 outlines in broad terms what level of leadership skill the cadet must be demonstrating during each phase of the Cadet Program. Commanders will use those goals as a guideline (not a definitive, absolute list of required skills) when making promotion decisions and mentoring cadets. By approving a promotion, the commander is attesting to the cadet’s ability to accept the increased responsibilities that accompany the promotion."

You might want to take a look at the online TLC Basic pre-course which also covers this. It makes it absolutely clear that it is the responsibility of commanders to consider the actual performance (vs. academic achievement) of cadets in leadership when making the promotion decision, and that it is appropriate to sustain a cadet in grade even if all testing is passed but the practical attainment in leadership is insufficient.

^^^^
This. Thank you.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Spam
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Posts: 1,284
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2019, 10:05:12 PM »

I absolutely disagree.  There should be no room for judgement calls like this for promotions within the Cadet Program.  That simply sets up far too many possible outcomes... personality clashes, favoritism, etc...

The part of the requirement which is most discretionary is the section on "leadership expectations". To quote from CAPR60-1:

"5.7. Leadership Development & Promotions. The “Leadership Expectations” shown in CAPVA 60-100 outlines in broad terms what level of leadership skill the cadet must be demonstrating during each phase of the Cadet Program. Commanders will use those goals as a guideline (not a definitive, absolute list of required skills) when making promotion decisions and mentoring cadets. By approving a promotion, the commander is attesting to the cadet’s ability to accept the increased responsibilities that accompany the promotion."

You might want to take a look at the online TLC Basic pre-course which also covers this. It makes it absolutely clear that it is the responsibility of commanders to consider the actual performance (vs. academic achievement) of cadets in leadership when making the promotion decision, and that it is appropriate to sustain a cadet in grade even if all testing is passed but the practical attainment in leadership is insufficient.

^^^^
This. Thank you.

Second that.

I'm pretty sure that the TLC curriculum goes in detail into how to assess, counsel, and sustain in grade cadets who may meet the objective (test) criteria but who fail to meet the subjective criteria and need more seasoning. The material has a couple of test cases, one of whom I'm pretty sure was a 13 or 14 year old cadet NCO who is sustained in grade. The material leads the new CP officer through how to properly assess and counsel such cases. I recommend both TLC courses to all CP officers and commanders as soon as reasonably possible in their CAP careers.

Thus has it always been. I've had to demote and sustain in grades many times, and even had to withdraw my endorsement for a Spaatz exam once. The TLC course (I feel) gives a solid grounding on why and how to execute these actions, and points out that adequate checks and balances exist (i.e. appeal processes) to mitigate any risks of personality. Why... we even have clear cut termination actions overturned...

R/s
Spam





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Kayll'b
Member

Posts: 58
Unit: PCR-WA-080

« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2019, 04:56:10 AM »

As far as maturity goes I would consider the stripes to diamonds to be the authority on this (not sure if it's an actual regulation or not). If you have a bunch of officers going around being the worst leader there is but can still wear their uniform and name facts and definitions, I would not want to be in that program. Here's what stripes to diamonds says:

"Leadership Expectations
Fulfilling the promotion eligibility requirements above is only half the battle. You also need to show that you have some leadership skills. Look at the goals below and once in a while ask yourself how well you're doing in those areas.

Attitude
Maintains a positive attitude and encourages good attitudes in others; does not flaunt rank or authority

Core Values
Displays commitment to Core Values; promotes team spirit, professionalism, and good sportsmanship as a team leader

Communication Skills
Proficient in informal public speaking (i.e., in giving directions to and training junior cadets)

Sense of Responsibility
Enforces standards; trustworthy in supervising a small team and leading them in fulfillment in a series of simple tasks; given a plan, is able to carry it out

Interpersonal Skills
Guides and coaches junior cadets; recognizes when junior cadets need help; leads by example; is not a "boss""

I see this as more important than all other parts of the promotion as without this you have no respect nor leadership; you have management.
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Lakeshore-CAP-Ret
Forum Regular

Posts: 135
Unit: MI-703 Ret

« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2019, 07:30:14 PM »

As far as maturity goes I would consider the stripes to diamonds to be the authority on this (not sure if it's an actual regulation or not). If you have a bunch of officers going around being the worst leader there is but can still wear their uniform and name facts and definitions, I would not want to be in that program. Here's what stripes to diamonds says:

"Leadership Expectations
Fulfilling the promotion eligibility requirements above is only half the battle. You also need to show that you have some leadership skills. Look at the goals below and once in a while ask yourself how well you're doing in those areas.

Attitude
Maintains a positive attitude and encourages good attitudes in others; does not flaunt rank or authority

Core Values
Displays commitment to Core Values; promotes team spirit, professionalism, and good sportsmanship as a team leader

Communication Skills
Proficient in informal public speaking (i.e., in giving directions to and training junior cadets)

Sense of Responsibility
Enforces standards; trustworthy in supervising a small team and leading them in fulfillment in a series of simple tasks; given a plan, is able to carry it out

Interpersonal Skills
Guides and coaches junior cadets; recognizes when junior cadets need help; leads by example; is not a "boss""

I see this as more important than all other parts of the promotion as without this you have no respect nor leadership; you have management.


I agree.  Putting others first, even when no one is looking is a beautiful quality to have, and should have been demonstrated well before the cadet even approaches the level of Mitchell.
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MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP (Ret) 8 Apr 2018
A former member of:
West Michigan Group MI-703,
Lakeshore Cadet Sqdrn MI-119
Van Dyke Cadet Sqdrn, MI-117
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