November 29, 2020, 01:07:40 am

Airpower History Magazine

Started by NIN, March 18, 2019, 06:03:10 pm

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NIN

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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Eclipse

"The CAP damage or destruction claims are now known to be without factual evidence..."

There, I've saved you all 35 seconds of skimming for that sentence.

Honestly, is there anything more "CAP" then its own lore being questionable at best
and requiring an asterisk?

To be fair though, as Col Blazich comments, combat was not a primary duty of CAP, even during this
period, and to that point, there are plenty of other ships, planes, units, and soldiers
who served fervently and with great effect despite not having a "kill" to their name.

Asking if they were a deterrent value is like asking if a fire department in a city that's never
had a fire is worth the expense.  There's no way to answer that question, except with dyer warnings
of potential consequences, or examples of places that suffered due to the lack of protection.

Once could certainly conjecture that the Germans were cognizant of coastal patrols and adjusted their behavior
because of them, making their missions more difficult as evidenced by their nearly zero impact on the CONUS
during the war.

My wish for CAP is that it would spend as much time concentrating on what it should be doing today
as what it might have done 70+ years ago, resulting in so much success and efficiency that
historical discussions are left to where they belong - as the basis of the organization, not the
focus of 30% of it's current activities.



NIN

I think the conclusion spells that out.

If CAP's Coastal Patrol hadn't stepped into the breech, allowing the Army & Navy time to build a more cohesive defense, and hadn't at least been somewhat effective, we wouldn't have been doing it for 18 months.

Quote"This contribution is best measured not in destroyed submarines, but rather the untold numbers of men, ships, and war materiel that arrived safely on foreign shores to help defeat the Axis powers."
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

NIN

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2019, 07:22:26 pm
To be fair though, as Col Blazich comments, combat was not a primary duty of CAP, even during this
period, and to that point, there are plenty of other ships, planes, units, and soldiers
who served fervently and with great effect despite not having a "kill" to their name.


You should probably be aware, that was written under the aegis of the Smithsonian, not CAP.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

Quote from: NIN on March 18, 2019, 08:03:32 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2019, 07:22:26 pm
To be fair though, as Col Blazich comments, combat was not a primary duty of CAP, even during this
period, and to that point, there are plenty of other ships, planes, units, and soldiers
who served fervently and with great effect despite not having a "kill" to their name.


You should probably be aware, that was written under the aegis of the Smithsonian, not CAP.


He'll always be a Col to me...



NIN

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SarDragon

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

flyboy53

Guess I'm wondering why it even matters -- damaged or destroyed.

It isn't all about that claim, it's about what they did given the resources and the missions. It should be more about the men and women lost in service to their country.

The record accomplished by a bunch of volunteers stands on it's own merits, regardless.

Spam

Quote from: flyboy53 on April 15, 2019, 01:22:41 pm
Guess I'm wondering why it even matters -- damaged or destroyed.

It isn't all about that claim, it's about what they did given the resources and the missions. It should be more about the men and women lost in service to their country.

The record accomplished by a bunch of volunteers stands on it's own merits, regardless.



It isn't ALL about the claims, but it really does matter if CAP is trying or not to set the "we killed U-boats" claims to right. It matters because it says vast things about our individual and corporate ethics. When we unquestioningly push untruths without proof (whether they're just based on poor comm, on eager but self-delusional beliefs, or outright organizational lies in order to inflate our performance to get wartime and post war funding) we compromise our integrity. Core Value time.

Even Popes and Marines have lapses (e.g. the collusion to falsify V-22 maintenance numbers to keep that program sold). What we do about it when we discover it is what really matters.

So yeah, it matters - a lot.


V/r
Spam




flyboy53

Quote from: Spam on April 15, 2019, 04:41:46 pm
Quote from: flyboy53 on April 15, 2019, 01:22:41 pm
Guess I'm wondering why it even matters -- damaged or destroyed.

It isn't all about that claim, it's about what they did given the resources and the missions. It should be more about the men and women lost in service to their country.

The record accomplished by a bunch of volunteers stands on it's own merits, regardless.



It isn't ALL about the claims, but it really does matter if CAP is trying or not to set the "we killed U-boats" claims to right. It matters because it says vast things about our individual and corporate ethics. When we unquestioningly push untruths without proof (whether they're just based on poor comm, on eager but self-delusional beliefs, or outright organizational lies in order to inflate our performance to get wartime and post war funding) we compromise our integrity. Core Value time.

Even Popes and Marines have lapses (e.g. the collusion to falsify V-22 maintenance numbers to keep that program sold). What we do about it when we discover it is what really matters.

So yeah, it matters - a lot.


V/r
Spam


True. I was looking at it from the prospective that a "corrected course" devoid of the "destroyed" claim would not tarnish the organization, given the other aspects of its history.

NIN

Quote from: flyboy53 on April 15, 2019, 04:50:53 pm
True. I was looking at it from the prospective that a "corrected course" devoid of the "destroyed" claim would not tarnish the organization, given the other aspects of its history.


And the author even says that. We had a spectacular WWII record even without "sank 2."

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

TheSkyHornet

How did I miss that meme?!  :clap:

Spam


Brought to my attention, as people are prepping for encampments:


https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Cadet_Encampment_Handbook_2017_Redu_25FD75FD645BA.pdf

H 401 CAP's WWII HISTORY, p. 46:
"During World War II CAP's coastal patrol flew 24 million
miles, found 173 enemy U-boats, attacked 57, hit 10 and
sank two,..."

and H 402 CAP TRIVIA (p. 48):
"When asked why the Nazis stopped sending U-boats
to patrol the U.S. coast, a captured skipper is said to
have replied, "Those [darn] yellow planes!"


Ned, if you and the NHQ CP staff are out there reading, may I recommend that these be flagged for removal in the next encampment guide edition.

R/s
Spam

(PS no intent to feed the Captalk curse filter; that was a cut and paste of the cussin' in the CAP publication)!