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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: United States Grounds All 737 MAX 8 and 9 Airplanes!
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Author Topic: United States Grounds All 737 MAX 8 and 9 Airplanes!  (Read 1774 times)
Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,793

« on: March 13, 2019, 07:45:38 PM »

Just announced at 3:40 local. United States grounds all 737 MAX 8 and 9 airplanes! Boeing shares fell 2% to about $347 a share.

Without speculating yet, there were the two crashes in Ethiopia and Indonesia, and un-commanded nose pitch-downs.

More countries, including Canada, had already taken the decision. Anyone wants to comment?

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sardak
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2019, 09:03:50 PM »

Here's the thread started after the Lion Air 800 MAX crash:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=23704.0 

The FDR and CVR from the Ethiopian jet were only recovered a day or two ago.  Here is the FAA's grounding order, with their rationale to do so starting at the bottom of page 3: https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/Emergency_Order.pdf

Mike
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NIN
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2019, 05:33:17 PM »

This is borderline relevant to CAP (but is relevant to aviation in general), so lets keep it on topic.

I've already had one mod report and I don't want to kill a thread if I don't have it.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2019 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
OldGuy
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2019, 03:08:33 AM »

From my G1000 class - remember, the PIC has to fly the airplane, not the computer! American pilots have been drilled in this, foreign pilots not so much.
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PHall
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2019, 05:45:05 AM »

From my G1000 class - remember, the PIC has to fly the airplane, not the computer! American pilots have been drilled in this, foreign pilots not so much.

Problem is that it's SOP with the airlines to engage the autopilot when you're passing through 1000 feet agl.
You need the autopilot to be engaged so the Flight Management System can do it's thing. And it's the FMS through VNAV and LNAV plus the Autothrottles that normally flies the airplane. Hand flying is normally frowned upon unless there is a malfunction.
The FMS is preferred because it gives a smoother ride and is much more fuel efficient. The Mk1, Mod 0 Human isn't.
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WhaleDriver
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2019, 07:35:19 AM »

From my G1000 class - remember, the PIC has to fly the airplane, not the computer! American pilots have been drilled in this, foreign pilots not so much.

Problem is that it's SOP with the airlines to engage the autopilot when you're passing through 1000 feet agl.
You need the autopilot to be engaged so the Flight Management System can do it's thing. And it's the FMS through VNAV and LNAV plus the Autothrottles that normally flies the airplane. Hand flying is normally frowned upon unless there is a malfunction.
The FMS is preferred because it gives a smoother ride and is much more fuel efficient. The Mk1, Mod 0 Human isn't.

That's not true. We are encouraged to handfly. Workload permitting, I fly all non RNP 1 departures by hand up to the first level off altitude or transition altitude. The FMS, LNAV and VNAV all do their thing regardless of the level of automation used.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 07:52:51 AM by WhaleDriver » Report to moderator   Logged
JayCraswell
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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2019, 09:58:22 PM »

Didn't the Airbus that slammed into the woods and exploded at the Paris Air show in 1988 have some sort of software that said when wheels are down below a certain altitude it would "autoland"
  I believe the pilot was doing a low pass so people could see the aircraft and... Disaster.

If what I've heard on the news is true there is some sort of stall detection auto correction computer code that auto dips the nose if stall is detected.  My question is why have a computer take over an event that is the first thing you learn (And have it hammered in over and over) during flight training.  And if the stall horn is coming on during a landing do you really want a machine taking the stick and pressing the nose down for you? 

If avionic software is written by the same level people as say Windows 10 where you have patch tuesday every month?  I would rather stick with a human pilot

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OldGuy
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2019, 07:11:01 AM »

From my G1000 class - remember, the PIC has to fly the airplane, not the computer! American pilots have been drilled in this, foreign pilots not so much.

Problem is that it's SOP with the airlines to engage the autopilot when you're passing through 1000 feet agl.
You need the autopilot to be engaged so the Flight Management System can do it's thing. And it's the FMS through VNAV and LNAV plus the Autothrottles that normally flies the airplane. Hand flying is normally frowned upon unless there is a malfunction.
The FMS is preferred because it gives a smoother ride and is much more fuel efficient. The Mk1, Mod 0 Human isn't.
My class included multiple commercial and military pilots who actually indicated the opposite. YMMV.
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NIN
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2019, 11:36:37 AM »

Didn't the Airbus that slammed into the woods and exploded at the Paris Air show in 1988 have some sort of software that said when wheels are down below a certain altitude it would "autoland"

Not exactly. According to the investigation & Airbus, a variety of factors combined to put a loaded airliner lower & slower than the pilots intended on a short runway that they weren't landing on, and the pilots didn't respond correctly.

The pilots, of course, say that the plane was at fault.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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scooter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 202

« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2019, 09:23:39 PM »

Have several thousand hour in Boeing Aircraft. The attached is the best analysis I have seen so far. Solution to trim issues is TURN IT OFF!

* B737_MAX_MCAS_Background.pdf (575.38 kB - downloaded 45 times.)
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OldGuy
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2019, 12:42:31 AM »

Have several thousand hour in Boeing Aircraft. The attached is the best analysis I have seen so far. Solution to trim issues is TURN IT OFF!
Yep - see https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/20/lion-air-boeing-737-saved-by-off-duty-pilot-a-day-before-crash-report.html

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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: United States Grounds All 737 MAX 8 and 9 Airplanes!
 


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