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February 22, 2019, 03:40:15 AM
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: CFI Training & Spins
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,430

« on: January 24, 2019, 05:29:45 PM »

Quote
9.4. Aircraft Use – Prohibited Activities. The following operations are prohibited in CAP aircraft:

9.4.1. Aerobatic flight and spins (except spins in a glider while receiving instruction towards an FAA flight instructor certificate).

Can take all the training for CFI in a CAP plane, but ^^^ this looks like I'd have to go elsewhere for the spin training endorsement.

Or is there an exception somewhere else that I'm missing?

Cessna says a C-172S can be used for spins as long as its in the utility category. Half tanks, and empty baggage area and back seat area.

Whats the difference in gliders?
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Spaceman3750
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Posts: 2,675

« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2019, 05:50:14 PM »

Speaking as a non-pilot, my guess would be better stall characteristics.

If you’re doing most of your otherwise more-expensive CFI training in a CAP aircraft, why are you sweating having to go out for a spin endorsement? You’re still getting a better deal than most other people.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,549

« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2019, 06:01:51 PM »

Can take all the training for CFI in a CAP plane, but ^^^ this looks like I'd have to go elsewhere for the spin training endorsement.

Correct - make sure to take some CAP brochures with you when you go.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,430

« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2019, 06:26:36 PM »

Speaking as a non-pilot, my guess would be better stall characteristics.

If you’re doing most of your otherwise more-expensive CFI training in a CAP aircraft, why are you sweating having to go out for a spin endorsement? You’re still getting a better deal than most other people.

Not sweating it at all.  The FBO has a 152 for rent that might be easier to spin for an hour anyway. I was just curious why CAP says no to spin training. So many CFIs will say that it should be required for PPL.  But the FAA doesn't think so any more, so I guess thats it. Don't want Cadets spinning CAP planes. IDK.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,426

« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2019, 06:54:05 PM »

Speaking as a non-pilot, my guess would be better stall characteristics.

If you’re doing most of your otherwise more-expensive CFI training in a CAP aircraft, why are you sweating having to go out for a spin endorsement? You’re still getting a better deal than most other people.

Not sweating it at all.  The FBO has a 152 for rent that might be easier to spin for an hour anyway. I was just curious why CAP says no to spin training. So many CFIs will say that it should be required for PPL.  But the FAA doesn't think so any more, so I guess thats it. Don't want Cadets spinning CAP planes. IDK.

You have your answer right in your post. Some CFI's may personally think that spin training should be required but the FAA doesn't see the need anymore.
From my personal observations, there doesn't seem to be as many spin accidents today as there was before. Is it because tail draggers are the exception instead of the norm? Who knows. There are probably a number of reasons.

As to why CAP doesn't allow spin training in their aircraft. You'll have to ask the Ops and Safety folks at National. Good luck on getting an answer!
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cnitas
Seasoned Member

Posts: 425

« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2019, 07:40:54 PM »

Statistics say that spin accidents went DOWN significantly after the FAA removed the requirement for spin training.   

The why of it can be debated, but I would guess the numbers, and the fact that our mission profiles rarely require acrobatics is why CAP OPs has made that particular call.

Interesting article from AOPA:
https://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/stall_spin.html
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Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003
JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,174

« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2019, 07:56:12 PM »

Statistics say that spin accidents went DOWN significantly after the FAA removed the requirement for spin training.   

The why of it can be debated, but I would guess the numbers, and the fact that our mission profiles rarely require acrobatics is why CAP OPs has made that particular call.

Interesting article from AOPA:
https://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/stall_spin.html
Rarely?
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cnitas
Seasoned Member

Posts: 425

« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2019, 08:53:57 PM »

 ;D
Well, I've been on some AP sorties where it felt like we were doing aerobatics. (insert puking emoji)

I am not privy to all CAP missions, so I can't say if there are any that might require some fancy maneuvering for some reason.   
I have never encountered it in my time, so I would think its rare.
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Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003
coudano
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,131

« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2019, 09:15:35 PM »

Whats the difference in gliders?

Gliders operate at slowest controllable speed on the regular (while thermalling)
so it's a good plan to be able to stall and spin recover, since the chances of stalling or spinning are higher
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docsteve
Member

Posts: 50

Steve's Musings on Life
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2019, 12:08:36 AM »

I have always spun my private pilot students.  Just because it is not required does not mean your students should not do it.
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Steve Sconfienza, Ph.D.
former captain
baronet68
Forum Regular

Posts: 134
Unit: PCR-WA-001

McChord.org
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2019, 08:31:29 AM »

Whats the difference in gliders?

Gliders operate at slowest controllable speed on the regular (while thermalling)
so it's a good plan to be able to stall and spin recover, since the chances of stalling or spinning are higher

Or fly an Ercoupe where the chances of a spin are about as low as being struck by lightning.  ;)
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Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
Secret Wing Staff Dude, WAWG
JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,174

« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2019, 06:09:42 PM »

I have always spun my private pilot students.  Just because it is not required does not mean your students should not do it.
I did my PP training in a Piper Cherokee...intentional spins prohibited by the POH.
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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 871
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 11:49:49 PM »

I have always spun my private pilot students.  Just because it is not required does not mean your students should not do it.
I did my PP training in a Piper Cherokee...intentional spins prohibited by the POH.

I learned in a Cessna 150 courtesy of CAP. It had a placard staying “Intentional spins with full flaps are prohibited.”

I remember reading that placard while I was in a spin. With full flaps. Lucky for me, it wasn’t intentional.

Having had no instruction on spin recovery, I figured it out by remembering various WWII pilot autobiographies. It worked. Plane didn’t crash. I didn’t get killed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,174

« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2019, 09:32:44 PM »

I was practicing slow flight in a 182 once and got distracted for a second, got too slow and uncoordinated...felt the wing start to drop and I was "Um..."

Caught it in incipient spin phase, not fully developed, but I'll remember that feeling!

I honestly wish I had experienced it in training.
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: CFI Training & Spins
 


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