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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: CFI Training & Spins
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Author Topic: CFI Training & Spins  (Read 1941 times)
etodd
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« on: January 24, 2019, 05:29:45 PM »

Quote
9.4. Aircraft Use – Prohibited Activities. The following operations are prohibited in CAP aircraft:

9.4.1. Aerobatic flight and spins (except spins in a glider while receiving instruction towards an FAA flight instructor certificate).

Can take all the training for CFI in a CAP plane, but ^^^ this looks like I'd have to go elsewhere for the spin training endorsement.

Or is there an exception somewhere else that I'm missing?

Cessna says a C-172S can be used for spins as long as its in the utility category. Half tanks, and empty baggage area and back seat area.

Whats the difference in gliders?
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2019, 05:50:14 PM »

Speaking as a non-pilot, my guess would be better stall characteristics.

If you’re doing most of your otherwise more-expensive CFI training in a CAP aircraft, why are you sweating having to go out for a spin endorsement? You’re still getting a better deal than most other people.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2019, 06:01:51 PM »

Can take all the training for CFI in a CAP plane, but ^^^ this looks like I'd have to go elsewhere for the spin training endorsement.

Correct - make sure to take some CAP brochures with you when you go.
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etodd
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2019, 06:26:36 PM »

Speaking as a non-pilot, my guess would be better stall characteristics.

If you’re doing most of your otherwise more-expensive CFI training in a CAP aircraft, why are you sweating having to go out for a spin endorsement? You’re still getting a better deal than most other people.

Not sweating it at all.  The FBO has a 152 for rent that might be easier to spin for an hour anyway. I was just curious why CAP says no to spin training. So many CFIs will say that it should be required for PPL.  But the FAA doesn't think so any more, so I guess thats it. Don't want Cadets spinning CAP planes. IDK.
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PHall
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2019, 06:54:05 PM »

Speaking as a non-pilot, my guess would be better stall characteristics.

If you’re doing most of your otherwise more-expensive CFI training in a CAP aircraft, why are you sweating having to go out for a spin endorsement? You’re still getting a better deal than most other people.

Not sweating it at all.  The FBO has a 152 for rent that might be easier to spin for an hour anyway. I was just curious why CAP says no to spin training. So many CFIs will say that it should be required for PPL.  But the FAA doesn't think so any more, so I guess thats it. Don't want Cadets spinning CAP planes. IDK.

You have your answer right in your post. Some CFI's may personally think that spin training should be required but the FAA doesn't see the need anymore.
From my personal observations, there doesn't seem to be as many spin accidents today as there was before. Is it because tail draggers are the exception instead of the norm? Who knows. There are probably a number of reasons.

As to why CAP doesn't allow spin training in their aircraft. You'll have to ask the Ops and Safety folks at National. Good luck on getting an answer!
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cnitas
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2019, 07:40:54 PM »

Statistics say that spin accidents went DOWN significantly after the FAA removed the requirement for spin training.   

The why of it can be debated, but I would guess the numbers, and the fact that our mission profiles rarely require acrobatics is why CAP OPs has made that particular call.

Interesting article from AOPA:
https://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/stall_spin.html
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Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
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JeffDG
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2019, 07:56:12 PM »

Statistics say that spin accidents went DOWN significantly after the FAA removed the requirement for spin training.   

The why of it can be debated, but I would guess the numbers, and the fact that our mission profiles rarely require acrobatics is why CAP OPs has made that particular call.

Interesting article from AOPA:
https://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/stall_spin.html
Rarely?
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cnitas
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2019, 08:53:57 PM »

 ;D
Well, I've been on some AP sorties where it felt like we were doing aerobatics. (insert puking emoji)

I am not privy to all CAP missions, so I can't say if there are any that might require some fancy maneuvering for some reason.   
I have never encountered it in my time, so I would think its rare.
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Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
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coudano
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2019, 09:15:35 PM »

Whats the difference in gliders?

Gliders operate at slowest controllable speed on the regular (while thermalling)
so it's a good plan to be able to stall and spin recover, since the chances of stalling or spinning are higher
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docsteve
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2019, 12:08:36 AM »

I have always spun my private pilot students.  Just because it is not required does not mean your students should not do it.
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Steve Sconfienza, Ph.D.
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baronet68
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2019, 08:31:29 AM »

Whats the difference in gliders?

Gliders operate at slowest controllable speed on the regular (while thermalling)
so it's a good plan to be able to stall and spin recover, since the chances of stalling or spinning are higher

Or fly an Ercoupe where the chances of a spin are about as low as being struck by lightning.  ;)
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Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
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JeffDG
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2019, 06:09:42 PM »

I have always spun my private pilot students.  Just because it is not required does not mean your students should not do it.
I did my PP training in a Piper Cherokee...intentional spins prohibited by the POH.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 11:49:49 PM »

I have always spun my private pilot students.  Just because it is not required does not mean your students should not do it.
I did my PP training in a Piper Cherokee...intentional spins prohibited by the POH.

I learned in a Cessna 150 courtesy of CAP. It had a placard staying “Intentional spins with full flaps are prohibited.”

I remember reading that placard while I was in a spin. With full flaps. Lucky for me, it wasn’t intentional.

Having had no instruction on spin recovery, I figured it out by remembering various WWII pilot autobiographies. It worked. Plane didn’t crash. I didn’t get killed.


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JeffDG
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2019, 09:32:44 PM »

I was practicing slow flight in a 182 once and got distracted for a second, got too slow and uncoordinated...felt the wing start to drop and I was "Um..."

Caught it in incipient spin phase, not fully developed, but I'll remember that feeling!

I honestly wish I had experienced it in training.
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aveighter
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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2019, 10:07:35 PM »

Speaking as a non-pilot, my guess would be better stall characteristics.

If you’re doing most of your otherwise more-expensive CFI training in a CAP aircraft, why are you sweating having to go out for a spin endorsement? You’re still getting a better deal than most other people.

Back in the day when spin training was required there were a certain number of reoccurring accidents related to inadequate recovery.  The decision ultimately was made to shift training to spin avoidance and the training accident rate decreased.  Of course, modern training aircraft are more inherently spin resistant but still...

Having actual spin training, however, is wise especially for the CFI trainee.  I had the good fortune to have a primary instructor that still felt spin recovery training was critical and I'm so glad he did.  Although I knew the procedure for recovery beforehand the actual experience was eye opening.

In a 150 with the nose pulled up and letting a wing fall off in the blink of an eye I went from looking straight up at the sky to looking straight down at the ground.  It was a shock at how fast it developed.  I think that physical experience was critical to my skills development and appreciation of the need to pay attention especially during certain phases of flight.

Here in the southeastern mountains missions often consist of manauvering flight while heavy, at times relatively low altitudes and hot temperatures.  The potential for a stall-spin circumstance is very real in several phases of flight.  The more real world training experience one can get the better.  I applaude the etodd for his dedication.
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PHall
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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2019, 10:39:19 PM »

Speaking as a non-pilot, my guess would be better stall characteristics.

If you’re doing most of your otherwise more-expensive CFI training in a CAP aircraft, why are you sweating having to go out for a spin endorsement? You’re still getting a better deal than most other people.

Back in the day when spin training was required there were a certain number of reoccurring accidents related to inadequate recovery.  The decision ultimately was made to shift training to spin avoidance and the training accident rate decreased.  Of course, modern training aircraft are more inherently spin resistant but still...

Having actual spin training, however, is wise especially for the CFI trainee.  I had the good fortune to have a primary instructor that still felt spin recovery training was critical and I'm so glad he did.  Although I knew the procedure for recovery beforehand the actual experience was eye opening.

In a 150 with the nose pulled up and letting a wing fall off in the blink of an eye I went from looking straight up at the sky to looking straight down at the ground.  It was a shock at how fast it developed.  I think that physical experience was critical to my skills development and appreciation of the need to pay attention especially during certain phases of flight.

Here in the southeastern mountains missions often consist of manauvering flight while heavy, at times relatively low altitudes and hot temperatures.  The potential for a stall-spin circumstance is very real in several phases of flight.  The more real world training experience one can get the better.  I applaude the etodd for his dedication.


Which is where "Airspeed is Life" came from.  Remember, your SOLE job as a Mission Pilot is to FLY THE AIRPLANE!!!!!!!
Leave the visual/electronic/video search to your Observer and Scanner. That's why you have them in the airplane with you.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2019, 11:07:53 PM »

...your SOLE job as a Mission Pilot is to FLY THE AIRPLANE!!!!!!!
Leave the visual/electronic/video search to your Observer and Scanner. That's why you have them in the airplane with you...

So simple yet so generally ignored.
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NIN
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2019, 11:11:41 AM »



Or fly an Ercoupe where the chances of a spin are about as low as being struck by lightning.  ;)

"Found the Ercoupe pilot"



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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2019 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
aveighter
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2019, 08:38:21 PM »

A big thanks to all the salty and seasoned aviators with too much time on their hands out there for rushing in to remind us that the SOLE job of the pilot is to FLY THE PLANE.  Brilliant observation and excellent advise indeed!

For everyone else the point of the post was to support and applaud a fellow pilots dedication to his craft and desire to seek out additional training to maximize his skills. 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2019, 09:13:33 PM »

A big thanks to all the salty and seasoned aviators with too much time on their hands out there for rushing in to remind us that the SOLE job of the pilot is to FLY THE PLANE.  Brilliant observation and excellent advise indeed!

You say that as if you are unaware of the fact that failure to accept and adhere to this basic principle isn't a problem with CAP pilots.

Perhaps you have never found yourself in a situation where the pilot leaves for the flight line without even briefing the rest of the crew,
or stands in front of the AOBD tapping his foot with a camera in his hand wondering "why I need to wait for an AP just to do some 'simple' photos".

Etc.
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: CFI Training & Spins
 


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