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2LTRobbins
Recruit

Posts: 6
Unit: NCR-NE-004

« on: November 28, 2018, 05:39:49 PM »

Hey guys!  I have a question and need some input.  I have a senior member that is employed by the Salvation Army and wants to volunteer as a bell ringer for them but cannot as employees can't do that.  He's asked me if he could volunteer as a CAP member.  I am unable to find a reg or info that prohibits this.  Can anyone help?

Thanks!
Chris
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cnitas
Seasoned Member

Posts: 425

« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2018, 05:46:41 PM »

This is a question he needs to ask the Salvation Army.  It is their policy and he is their employee.
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Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
Frederick Composite Squadron
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,907

« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2018, 06:02:19 PM »

There's nothing on the CAP side that would prohibit it, from that perspective he's just like any other
volunteer.

One could certainly see why they would not want FTEs to be ringing bells, that could be viewed
negatively in any number of lights, not the least of which is the fact that the SA actually employs
homeless people to ring bells.

No reason he can't be in CAP, which has zero connection to the SA.
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Pace
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2018, 06:38:10 PM »

It seems to me the conflict of interest that the SA is trying to avoid would still exist, regardless of what badge or uniform this person wears at the time. Now if he wants to bell ring for CAP, go for it (but read the regs and make sure you go through the right channels and wear the correct uniform).
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
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2LTRobbins
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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2018, 06:54:04 PM »

I guess maybe I should clarify a bit.  He's wanting to ring the bell representing CAP, fundraising for another organization.  We don't have a reg against that do we?  SA has told him it's ok as long as he's representing another organization and not his employer.  I'm pretty sure he's wearing his blues for this too.  I'm not worried about him being in CAP...just wondering if we can volunteer to raise funds for another organization while wearing our uniform. 

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Eclipse
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2018, 06:56:41 PM »

I guess maybe I should clarify a bit.  He's wanting to ring the bell representing CAP, fundraising for another organization.  We don't have a reg against that do we?  SA has told him it's ok as long as he's representing another organization and not his employer.  I'm pretty sure he's wearing his blues for this too.  I'm not worried about him being in CAP...just wondering if we can volunteer to raise funds for another organization while wearing our uniform.

No.

Adult members can't even raise funds for CAP in the USAF combos, let alone the SA.

In addition to the finance rules about raising funds in uniform, there are common-sense public perception and
appearance issues that need to be acknowledged.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,782

« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2018, 07:00:58 PM »

To piggyback on everyone above:

You, as a CAP member, can be in 100 other organizations if you so choose whilst a member of CAP.

All that matters at the time of the activity is what organization you're representing in that specific moment. If you are not conducting the work for CAP, or in support of CAP, or in representation of CAP (e.g., ringing the bell for the Salvation Army, working with Habitat for Humanity, etc.)...not wearing a CAP uniform or CAP apparel...you're entirely golden.

Raise all the funds you want. Do whatever you want with the money...legally or illegally...so long as it has no crossover into the CAP world.

CAP doesn't care if you are a terrible volunteer for SA or HFH, as long as you aren't disgracing CAP or causing legal issues for CAP. Morally, we care about everyone. Legally, CAP cares about CAP.

The minute you slap on a CAP uniform, you're representing CAP and fall under CAP regulations for fundraising. If people see CAP and donate to CAP, and that money goes to SA, you have a problem; that's fraud/misrepresentation of causes and intent.

As Eclipse said, only cadets can raise funds in the Air Force-style uniform (CAPR 173-4(A)(2)).
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Pace
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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2018, 07:04:58 PM »

My spidey sense says no.


Quote
CAPR 173-4

2. No Air Force Involvement. It is important that no suggestions or inference be made in any CAP fund-raising program that the Air Force is involved or would benefit. Therefore, wear
of the Air Force-style CAP uniform in fund raising activities is limited to cadets. Advertising and
promotional matter should clearly identify CAP as a distinct organization from the Air Force.
(See also paragraph 15f.)

CAP fundraising seems limited to funds raised for CAP. He certainly can't wear the Air Force style uniform. Just seems like blurring the lines too much. You certainly don't want anyone complaining about thinking they were donating to CAP while the funds go to the SA. I wouldn't do it, but you can always send it up your chain of command and cross your fingers.
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Lt Col, CAP
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2LTRobbins
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« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2018, 07:05:42 PM »

Thank you everyone!  This is what I've been wondering.  I didn't think it seemed right, but needed some sort of proof to be able to present this to him.  We've had a bit of a problem in the past (before I was a member) and didn't know then how to handle it.

Thanks again!
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Eclipse
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2018, 07:12:16 PM »

Even if the suggestion were to wear a corporate combo the idea fails on the logic.

This person is an employee, and will still be an employee regardless of what "other" organization
he pretends to be in that day.  He's always an SA employee.

I've seen SA volunteer members in uniforms ringing bells, but not the bucket volunteers (and paid solicitors), they just wear civilian
clothes like everyone else, usually with a red SA apron...





So wearing a CAP golf shirt until a winter jacket negates the employee issues?

There are also liability issues to consider.  To do this would require at least the unit CC's approval, and probably
Wing CC, that puts CAP on the hook should anything bad happen from theft to injury.  Bell ringers are robbed,
hit by cars, etc., etc.
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2LTRobbins
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 07:17:11 PM »

Hey...maybe it's time to break out a white jumpsuit for our SM.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 07:37:19 PM »

Even if the suggestion were to wear a corporate combo the idea fails on the logic.

This person is an employee, and will still be an employee regardless of what "other" organization
he pretends to be in that day.  He's always an SA employee.

I've seen SA volunteer members in uniforms ringing bells, but not the bucket volunteers (and paid solicitors), they just wear civilian
clothes like everyone else, usually with a red SA apron...

So wearing a CAP golf shirt until a winter jacket negates the employee issues?

There are also liability issues to consider.  To do this would require at least the unit CC's approval, and probably
Wing CC, that puts CAP on the hook should anything bad happen from theft to injury.  Bell ringers are robbed,
hit by cars, etc., etc.

But, really, from the CAP standpoint, CAP doesn't care if you're an SA employee. That's SA's problem. All CAP worries about is what involvement (and liabilities) CAP has...from financial, legal (both civil and criminal), and PR stances.


Sounds like we have two questions being asked here really:
1.) Can a CAP member ring the bell for the Salvation Army during a Salvation Army fundraiser? --- Only CAP can answer that.

2.) Can a Salvation Army employee ring the best for Salvation Army fundraising as long as they aren't in Salvation Army apparel? --- Only SA can answer that.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 07:40:19 PM »

Agree all the way around (including the jumpsuit).
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lordmonar
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2018, 05:43:44 AM »

Hey guys!  I have a question and need some input.  I have a senior member that is employed by the Salvation Army and wants to volunteer as a bell ringer for them but cannot as employees can't do that.  He's asked me if he could volunteer as a CAP member.  I am unable to find a reg or info that prohibits this.  Can anyone help?

Thanks!
Chris

What?

If he can't join the bell ringers a Salvation Army employee.....he can't join.   Even if he says "I work for CAP".   That's fraud.

Anyways......it is up to the Salvation Army to decide who can or cannot be their bell ringgers.

As far as volunteering for anything as a CAP member.......that should be run through the chain of command.     If I were in charge....which I'm not....and don't want to be......I would deny the request to volunteer with the Salvation Army as a "CAP member".   If he wants to volunteer a John Q. Public.....I would remind him to make sure someone at the Salvation Army documents his hours and add them to his personnel record for the community service ribbon.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,777

« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2018, 04:42:38 PM »

After all this, no one has mentioned the Memorandum of Understanding - MOU - between CAP and Salvation Army. See https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/SALVATION_ARMY_3B40305FEA5E4.pdf

In this MOU, CAP agrees to provide staff to the Salvation Army. See that MOU section 5. A. (1) through (4).

But I fail to see how a bell ringer would fit here.

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Squadron Safety Officer
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MSG Mac
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Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2018, 06:14:01 PM »

Bottom line is that he’s a paid employee of the Salvation Army. SA has already told him NO! Doesn’t matter what other organizations he belongs to.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
PHall
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Posts: 6,556

« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2018, 08:45:44 PM »

He's an employee of the SA. SA says employees can't be "bell ringers". If he really want's to give that badly then he can do like the rest of us do.
Drop some money in the kettle...
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2LTRobbins
Recruit

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Unit: NCR-NE-004

« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2018, 02:41:14 PM »

SA told him NO as an employee.  He's free to volunteer like the rest of us.  And he did, just not under the guise of being a CAP member. 
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SarDragon
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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2018, 09:59:19 PM »

It appears that SA has a well established rule that you can be an employee, or a volunteer, and they are mutually exclusive. I belong to another organization that has the same rule, and I believe that CAP is also that way. You are either a member (volunteer) or an employee, never both at once.
I think we're done here.
Click.
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Dave Bowles
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