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Toetheline
Recruit

Posts: 6

« on: November 20, 2018, 01:05:26 PM »

I just have a technical question. if you are a cadet sponsor for 6 months and become a SM can you promote to 2 nd Lt. Right away?  I know the rules say 6 months as a SM, but can You do a bunch of testing and accelerate the promotion?
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,915

« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2018, 01:14:43 PM »

What's the rush, new guy? Learn the job, earn the promotions, be a high speed contributor. CAP SM rank means just about nothing, so don't get hung up on it. Plenty of long term SMs out there that have been contributing in big ways without bars or leaves....
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Strup
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Eclipse
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2018, 01:57:47 PM »

No.

What "testing" would you do?
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Toetheline
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2018, 02:22:17 PM »

What if one did all the Aero space testing up to the Yeager award?   
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Eclipse
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2018, 02:35:53 PM »

Then one would receive the Yeager Award.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2018, 02:38:09 PM »

What if one did all the Aero space testing up to the Yeager award?

This alone shows that you need more understanding of how the organization works before you are promoted. A lot more. Don't worry about rank. It will come in time. At this point in your membership, you should be finding out where you fit, not grabbing rank.
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Strup
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Toetheline
Recruit

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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2018, 02:48:31 PM »

This is not me.... it has happened in my Squadren and being one who “toes the line” and leads by example I wanted to know if it is legal or some kind of a loophole that was exploited.  I believe in following the rules to a T so I wondered how this happened and if it was ok to do.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2018, 02:56:13 PM »

This is not me.... it has happened in my Squadren and being one who “toes the line” and leads by example I wanted to know if it is legal or some kind of a loophole that was exploited.  I believe in following the rules to a T so I wondered how this happened and if it was ok to do.

Several ways. None of which have to do with "testing".

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R035_005_489E25C089E93.pdf
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Strup
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PHall
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2018, 03:08:50 PM »

This is not me.... it has happened in my Squadren and being one who “toes the line” and leads by example I wanted to know if it is legal or some kind of a loophole that was exploited.  I believe in following the rules to a T so I wondered how this happened and if it was ok to do.

Then some further research might be needed because the "accelerated promotions" only apply to the Cadet Program.
Suggest some serious reading of CAPM 50-17 and CAPM 35-5 is in order.
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coudano
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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2018, 03:52:16 PM »

I'm not sure you couldn't,
35-5 says
Code: [Select]
2d Lt // Level I // 6 months as a member
So if you've completed all the other eligibility and requirements,
what does "a member" mean?

:D
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2018, 05:21:54 PM »

If they were in CAP for at least 6 months, and completed the Level I requirements, then they would be eligible to promote to 2d Lt.

If the Commander feels that the individual is not ready for that promotion, then they won't be promoted (albeit other courses of action if the person feels there is something unjust about the situation).


This is not a legal issue. There's no legality in this. You're talking policy compliance, not law.

And "leading by example" doesn't mean "toeing the line." What's your role in the unit? Is this something that you're supposed to be involved in? Are you speaking on behalf of someone who has an issue and doesn't understand, or are you stepping in to fill a void that you thinks exists?

If you want to lead by example, read the regulations on the subject matter and resolve this internally as a mentor, not typing at mach speed on a message board without proofreading. You're being directed in the right direction by some fairly competent, experienced people who are taking the time to assist, and you're replying with nonsense.

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Toetheline
Recruit

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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2018, 06:10:30 PM »

I’m sorry TheSkyHornet, if I offended you. I’m not sure what you mean by proofreading. I do believe my posts make sense. But if you believe otherwise I’m sorry.  My grammar is not the issue here. The issue at hand is causing ruffles in the Squadren. I have read all the regulations BEFORE, posting this and I’m sorry to say no exceptions apply. The only discrepancy is the difference that says 6 months as a SM and one that says 6 months as a member. Which is true? Or is this the loophole that was exploited? I was just looking for knowledge that may have been out there that I couldn’t find.  Thank you for your time.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2018, 06:17:27 PM »

CSMs, by definition, are not eligible to hold CAP grade.

CAPR 39-2, Page 16:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R039_002_A74FDA9552C2D.pdf
"3.5.1.9. CSMs will not earn CAP rank, awards or decorations."

They don't start accruing time towards "active" membership until they transfer to active status.
This is no different then someone who joined as a Patron member and then decides to convert to active.

However, I would be willing to bet eServices doesn't accommodate this properly and shows only total
membership time ion the promotions module, allowing for a member with 6+1 to be promoted immediately.

With the above said, an active CSM who wants to convert with 6+1 should be promoted immediately.  Seriously,
what difference does it make other then positive reinforcement.

The above, and other factors are why CSM is a waste of time, more trouble then it's worth, and I never did them.
I just had interested parents join as regular members.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2018, 06:37:43 PM »

I’m sorry TheSkyHornet, if I offended you. I’m not sure what you mean by proofreading. I do believe my posts make sense. But if you believe otherwise I’m sorry.  My grammar is not the issue here. The issue at hand is causing ruffles in the Squadren. I have read all the regulations BEFORE, posting this and I’m sorry to say no exceptions apply. The only discrepancy is the difference that says 6 months as a SM and one that says 6 months as a member. Which is true? Or is this the loophole that was exploited? I was just looking for knowledge that may have been out there that I couldn’t find.  Thank you for your time.

It's squadron.

That said, I see little difference between SM and member, unless this involves a cadet. When an adult joins, they are both a member, in general, and an SM, is indicated by grade in the data base.

As for the Cadet Sponsor conversion, the member must still complete all the Level I requirements for promotion to 2nd Lt, even if they have been a member >6 months. Nothing is automatic.
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Dave Bowles
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2018, 06:40:33 PM »

As for the Cadet Sponsor conversion, the member must still complete all the Level I requirements for promotion to 2nd Lt, even if they have been a member >6 months. Nothing is automatic.

Just for clarity:

CSMs require the completion of Level I regardless. So, in practicality, when they convert to being a "full" senior member, then Level I should already be accomplished.

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SarDragon
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2018, 06:45:01 PM »

As for the Cadet Sponsor conversion, the member must still complete all the Level I requirements for promotion to 2nd Lt, even if they have been a member >6 months. Nothing is automatic.

Just for clarity:

CSMs require the completion of Level I regardless. So, in practicality, when they convert to being a "full" senior member, then Level I should already be accomplished.

OK. I haven't dealt with those folks in a long time, so wasn't sure what their hoop set was compared to regular members.
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Dave Bowles
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2018, 06:57:03 PM »

What you are asking seems to be is whether service as a Cadet Sponsor is = to member.

I would say no, since Cadet Sponsor cannot do all the things senior members can do. Albeit a senior member who does nothing but drive cadets once in a while may not be doing much more than cadet sponsors... This is a different issue...

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Squadron Safety Officer
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vorteks
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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2018, 07:59:02 PM »

As for the Cadet Sponsor conversion, the member must still complete all the Level I requirements for promotion to 2nd Lt, even if they have been a member >6 months. Nothing is automatic.

Just for clarity:

CSMs require the completion of Level I regardless. So, in practicality, when they convert to being a "full" senior member, then Level I should already be accomplished.

OK. I haven't dealt with those folks in a long time, so wasn't sure what their hoop set was compared to regular members.

S'true:

Quote from: CAPR 39-2
3.5. Cadet Sponsor Members.
...
3.5.1.4. They must complete Level I and Cadet Protection Program training prior to associating in any way with CAP cadets.
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NIN
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Unit: of issue

« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2018, 08:44:53 PM »

What you are asking seems to be is whether service as a Cadet Sponsor is = to member.

I would say no, since Cadet Sponsor cannot do all the things senior members can do. Albeit a senior member who does nothing but drive cadets once in a while may not be doing much more than cadet sponsors... This is a different issue...

OK, stop putting out misinformation. You should know better.

Make a stop in CAPR 39-2, Chapter 3 and more specifically paragraph 3.5. Familiarize yourself with the categories of membership before you go around saying "Well, I think this.." when the actual rules governing the organization and the member process are the opposite.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2019 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
NIN
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Unit: of issue

« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2018, 08:52:54 PM »

CSMs, by definition, are not eligible to hold CAP grade.

CAPR 39-2, Page 16:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R039_002_A74FDA9552C2D.pdf
"3.5.1.9. CSMs will not earn CAP rank, awards or decorations."

They don't start accruing time towards "active" membership until they transfer to active status.
This is no different then someone who joined as a Patron member and then decides to convert to active.

However, I would be willing to bet eServices doesn't accommodate this properly and shows only total
membership time ion the promotions module, allowing for a member with 6+1 to be promoted immediately.

With the above said, an active CSM who wants to convert with 6+1 should be promoted immediately.  Seriously,
what difference does it make other then positive reinforcement.

The above, and other factors are why CSM is a waste of time, more trouble then it's worth, and I never did them.
I just had interested parents join as regular members.

And you too, Bob. No.

Cadet Sponsor Members are "Active Members," not "Associate Members" like Patrons or AEMs.

Just because they don't get promoted doesn't mean they aren't in the organization and actively participating for the period of their membership.

Familiarize yourself with the rules. Chapter 3, "Active Membership" (and more specifically Cadet Sponsor Members) versus Chapter 4, "Associate Membership" which is Patron, Retired, AEM, etc.

Just because you haven't seen Cadet Sponsor Members used effectively or correctly doesn't mean they don't have value and aren't used effectively or correctly elsewhere. I have had Cadet Sponsor Members in my units, and I have found them to be productive and helpful when the expectations are set correctly and everybody understands the parameters.  But when you immediately start saying things like "they're not active members" you immediately devalue the worth of their participation.

No wonder you have had no luck with them: you treat them as second class citizens.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2019 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: SM promotion accelerated
 


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