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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Hand-propping a Cirrus
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Author Topic: Hand-propping a Cirrus  (Read 1134 times)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,355

« on: September 21, 2018, 01:27:03 AM »



(Video can't be embedded, so you have to click through to see it...)
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,729

« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2018, 01:48:24 AM »

Thank you for this. Now I will have two things to show at my next Group's Safety Briefing.

Ask them to see this, and analyze the results.
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Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,517
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2018, 03:10:28 AM »

Hand-propping has been a no-no in CAP for many years. But maroons still try it.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,358

« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2018, 04:04:06 AM »

Yeah, I bet the throttle was a bit more then "cracked".
As was the guy hand propping...
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jeders
Global Moderator

Posts: 2,126

« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2018, 01:24:55 PM »

Hand propping can be done very safely...or it can turn out like this. After watching the first few second of the video:

There were two people their, one was standing on the wing on the passenger side. Why wasn't someone in the aircraft to flip switches and ensure a safe start?

Why did the pilot doing the hand propping run directly in front of the propeller to get to the cockpit?

Why weren't the breaks applied?

Again, there are safe ways to hand prop an airplane, if you follow a checklist. Why wasn't a checklist followed?

Yeah, I bet the throttle was a bit more then "cracked".
As was the guy hand propping...

Definitely to the first part, and quite possibly to the second part.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,583

« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2018, 01:51:18 PM »

There were two people their, one was standing on the wing on the passenger side. Why wasn't someone in the aircraft to flip switches and ensure a safe start?

Yup.

Quote
Why did the pilot doing the hand propping run directly in front of the propeller to get to the cockpit?

Yup.

Quote
Why weren't the breaks applied?

Yup.

Quote
Again, there are safe ways to hand prop an airplane, if you follow a checklist. Why wasn't a checklist followed?

Yup.

Yeah, I bet the throttle was a bit more then "cracked".
As was the guy hand propping...
Definitely to the first part, and quite possibly to the second part.

YUP.

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Blanding
Recruit

Posts: 44
Unit: MER-VA-102

« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2018, 06:35:07 PM »

It's impossible to know the answers without investigation. My opinion: simply calling out the pilot for making mistakes does no real benefit to the community.

There were two people their, one was standing on the wing on the passenger side. Why wasn't someone in the aircraft to flip switches and ensure a safe start?

It's possible that the person in the airplane who jumped out was not a pilot or had no familiarity with the Cirrus, or was not instructed to do anything during the evolution. Also, it's possible that the passenger was startled when the airplane started moving, so rather than go "along for the ride" decided to jump off.

Quote
Why did the pilot doing the hand propping run directly in front of the propeller to get to the cockpit?

Because the pilot side door was to his right. How much time exactly did he have to perceive the situation? Not enough for the rational part of the brain to override his decision.

Quote
Why weren't the breaks applied?


You don't know they weren't; again, this is where an investigation is required. The SR-22 maintenance manual lists several possible causes of brakes not holding:

-Contaminated brake lining.
-Improper conditioning of brake linings.
-Brake linings worn below minimum wear limits.
-Brake disk worn below minimum wear limits.
-Brake lining carbonized (overheated).
-Pressure plate contacting torque plate assembly.
-New brake linings not seated in wear track of old brake disk, resulting in partial contact with brake disk.

Quote
Again, there are safe ways to hand prop an airplane, if you follow a checklist. Why wasn't a checklist followed?

There is no procedure / checklist in the Cirrus POH for hand propping the airplane, so according to Cirrus, there is no safe approved way to hand prop the airplane. It would be appropriate to ask why the pilot conducted an unapproved procedure in this airplane, but not why a checklist wasn't followed. Why do pilots conduct unapproved procedures? Usually it's not a willful disregard for their life or property.

Best to let an investigation occur, obviously.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,583

« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2018, 07:17:52 PM »

If the POH doesn't indicate hand-starting the propeller to power the engine, then you shouldn't be hand-starting it. Seems like we established that. So, I agree; it's entirely appropriate to ask why he would be hand-starting without an approved procedure. Seems to me like reading the checklist would establish that there is no procedure; thus, it shouldn't be done.

NOTE: The POH does provide instructions for hand-rotating the prop to prime it in cold weather conditions, with the ignition off.

If you don't have a qualified pilot sitting at the controls when hand-cranking an engine, you shouldn't be doing it.

The "letter" at the end of the video indicates that the pilot had previously stated the aircraft did not have enough battery juice to start the plane, indicating that he was intending to fire it up by hand. He asked for a power pack. He was told it was unknown. He asked for mechanics and was told they would not be in until Monday (Sep 10; this was on Sep 8). The FAA accident notification report states this was a "hand prop of an engine."

Signs indicate---and yes, it's just an assumption; not factual---that he decided "The heck with it" and cranked her up. Bad decisions were made on the sole part of the PIC.

Possible maintenance discrepancies included, you do not start an aircraft without someone having positive control of the aircraft. This did not occur.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 07:22:18 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 704

« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2018, 11:11:09 PM »

If the POH doesn't indicate hand-starting the propeller to power the engine, then you shouldn't be hand-starting it.

NOTE: The POH does provide instructions for hand-rotating the prop to prime it in cold weather conditions, with the ignition off.

...
The "letter" at the end of the video indicates that the pilot had previously stated the aircraft did not have enough battery juice to start the plane, indicating that he was intending to fire it up by hand. He asked for a power pack. He was told it was unknown. He asked for mechanics and was told they would not be in until Monday (Sep 10; this was on Sep 8). The FAA accident notification report states this was a "hand prop of an engine."

Signs indicate---and yes, it's just an assumption; not factual---that he decided "The heck with it" and cranked her up. Bad decisions were made on the sole part of the PIC.

Possible maintenance discrepancies included, ....

Cirrus never designed, produced, or certified the aircraft with an inop battery.  Hence it deviated from the TCDS.  Ir was demonstrably not "safe to fly".  Either failure to meet the TCDS or failure to be 'safe to fly' means the aircraft was unairworthy.  Could it be that's why CAP specifically prohibits hand propping?
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,517
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2018, 02:26:54 AM »

This is a general prohibition, not restricted to specific aircraft:

CAPR 60-1 3 MAY 2014
CHAPTER 2 RULES OF OPERATION
2-1. Basic Rules.

f. Hand propped starts and jump starts from vehicle batteries are prohibited.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,355

« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2018, 02:49:21 AM »

This is a general prohibition, not restricted to specific aircraft:

CAPR 60-1 3 MAY 2014
CHAPTER 2 RULES OF OPERATION
2-1. Basic Rules.

f. Hand propped starts and jump starts from vehicle batteries are prohibited.

Weird that's it's even mentioned in the reg for Cadet Program Management, though.  ((*snicker*))
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,517
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2018, 03:04:00 AM »

This is a general prohibition, not restricted to specific aircraft:

CAPR 60-1 3 MAY 2014
CHAPTER 2 RULES OF OPERATION
2-1. Basic Rules.

f. Hand propped starts and jump starts from vehicle batteries are prohibited.


Weird that's it's even mentioned in the reg for Cadet Program Management, though.  ((*snicker*))
CAPR 70-1    4 DECEMBER 2017

9.4. Aircraft Use Prohibited Activities. The following operations are prohibited in CAP aircraft:

9.4.5. Hand-propped starts and jump starts from vehicle batteries.
Happy now?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 03:14:51 AM by SarDragon » Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Hand-propping a Cirrus
 


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