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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,293
Unit: Worry

« on: September 10, 2018, 03:07:58 PM »

I seem to recall there is a technical term for when staff officers give orders when they shouldn't be. Does anyone happen to know what that term is?

And does anyone know if the term changes when a wing staff officer keeps countermanding my orders as a squadron commander to my subordinates, and does so without notifying me, without documenting it, and continues to otherwise interfere with my command intent and direct orders?

Before you ask:
Yes, I'm following the regulations.
No, there is noting untoward about my orders.
Yes, I've sent the issue up the chain of command.
Yes, I've done this more than once.
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LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,846
Unit: Earth

« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2018, 03:14:21 PM »

Cannot think of any technical terms for that. But have seen plenty of “wearing the commander’s rank” from Wing Staff Officers.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,901

« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2018, 03:24:16 PM »

Mutiny?

It happens an awful lot. Staff occasionally needs to be reminded that they are in the advice business, not the giving orders business.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,573

« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2018, 03:28:48 PM »

I can't think of the "technical term" for this.

There's two issues in this:
1.) The issuance of an order that isn't under their authority, necessarily.
2.) The countermand of your order.

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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,347

« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2018, 03:54:47 PM »

I seem to recall there is a technical term for when staff officers give orders when they shouldn't be.

SOP

Don't send it "up the chain", address it directly with the Wing Chief of Staff, and if that doesn't work,
the Wing CC.

You can also advise you people to simply ignore these messages until they come through proper channels,
however in many cases the people on the receiving end might be motivated to ignore that directive as well.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 03:58:19 PM by Eclipse » Logged


Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 365

« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2018, 03:58:10 PM »

“Fight on sight”
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,661

« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2018, 04:19:14 PM »

I seem to recall there is a technical term for when staff officers give orders when they shouldn't be. Does anyone happen to know what that term is?

And does anyone know if the term changes when a wing staff officer keeps countermanding my orders as a squadron commander to my subordinates, and does so without notifying me, without documenting it, and continues to otherwise interfere with my command intent and direct orders?

Before you ask:
Yes, I'm following the regulations.
No, there is noting untoward about my orders.
Yes, I've sent the issue up the chain of command.
Yes, I've done this more than once.

Okay......in the active military....authority comes from three sources.

Line.   That is chain of command.  From a lowest E-1 to the CIC we have a chain of command.....and chain of command usually over rules all other authorities.   That is....some random Captain says to XYZ but your SSgt says to do PDQ......you do PDQ because the SSgt is in your chain of command and the random captain is not.   The SSgt may get in trouble...but not you.

Staff.   Staff authority is the authority that comes with rank.    All Generals out rank all Colonels....all SSgts out rank all SrA. 
Positional/functional authority.  This come from a commander appointing you to a staff position.   The wing admin officer can tell all admin personnel how to do ADMIN things within the wing.  The wing supply officer can tell all supply personnel how to do SUPPLY things within the wing.
So....your conflict is that their functional authority is conflicting with your line authority.
The solution is to take the issue to the wing commander or the chief of staff.
The technical term you are looking for is undermining your command authority.   It is serious problem and needs to corrected quickly.

But be warned.

Be prepared for the wing commander to back his/her staff officer.

The staff officer was appointed to run what ever area he/she has authority over.

So if the issue is something like "I want all the personnel files in green folders, but the Wing Personnel officer wants them all in blue." you might just loose that battle.

If it is a "The wing personnel officer is telling my supply NCO to wear blues on Mondays" then that is obviously something outside the staff officer's area of responsibility and he would loose.

More specific information may help with how we can advise you on moving forward.
 
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,573

« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2018, 08:16:40 PM »

^ SMSgt Harris' point was my initial thoughts.

Generally, I would consider a staff officer's directive to be an extension of the higher echelon commander's intent.

That said, I'm also cautious with taking a staff officer's word as gospel unless I'm directly associating it with a question. If a staff officer says "This is how it needs to be done," I'd like to see the regulation that backs it (unless it's an SOP from on-high, but usually those won't be effective at lower echelons).

I hear gouge going around about a unit somewhere having issues with appointments/promotions based on military grade, and the associated paperwork. Higher up is saying something different than how the regs read. That is when I would challenge it, and if they refuse to accept the copy/paste from the regs, it needs to go to their boss. Just an example...
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