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careyhead
Newbie

Posts: 1
Unit: MER-NC-024

« on: August 21, 2018, 04:01:44 PM »

Our squadron has recently grown from a dozen cadets plus 3-4 seniors to a 57-member squadron with active non-parent seniors. We have decided to create a senior flight for opening formation, and my question is this: The Cadet First Sergeant calls for the report. What is the appropriate response for a SM Flight Commander, if different from the cadet flights? Some of our older senior members don't like the idea of a SM saluting to the Cadet First Sergeant.

Thanks!
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,347

« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2018, 04:13:27 PM »

That's because they don't, and there's no such thing as a "Senior Member Flight Commander".

The Senior Members are not in the cadet chain and it would be inappropriate for them to "report"
to a cadet.

There's no issue with having Seniors in formation, I've always encouraged the practice, but
no reason for them to report, and in the case they would be, the only appropriate person for
them to report to would be CDS.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 04:17:14 PM by Eclipse » Logged


THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,901

« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2018, 05:21:27 PM »

We did this in every unit I was ever in. The cadets would report through their chain to their Deputy Commander and the SMs would do the same. The deputies would report to the commander.

Congrats on the growth. Work on retention.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,573

« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2018, 07:21:41 PM »

That's because they don't, and there's no such thing as a "Senior Member Flight Commander".

The Senior Members are not in the cadet chain and it would be inappropriate for them to "report"
to a cadet.

There's no issue with having Seniors in formation, I've always encouraged the practice, but
no reason for them to report, and in the case they would be, the only appropriate person for
them to report to would be CDS.


Agreed on this point. You report in formation to the person to whom you report outside of formation.

For the sake of drill and ceremonies, the CDS is effectively the Flight Commander if performing in that capacity at the time. But there is no "Senior Member Flight Commander" in practicality.

Composite Squadrons are a funky setup. The Cadet portion is essentially a squadron in itself. Then you have a cadre team of Cadet Programs staff to whom the Cadet Commander would report (the CDC, to whom the senior Cadet Program staff also reports). So by that point, you've got a funky formation. Generally, in a military formation, you wouldn't report to a "Deputy Commander;" you'd report to the Commander. The Deputy may be posted elsewhere (say, behind the formation, or behind the Commander). This turns the Composite Squadron more into a Group-type setup than a Squadron-type setup because of those weird under layers.

What I've seen squadrons do is have a cadet flight form, reporting to the Cadet Commander, who reports to the Commander; and a senior flight form, reporting to the Deputy Commander for Seniors, who reports to the Commander. This puts the Deputy Commander for Cadets in a weird spot (if he/she has an issue with it), because now they're reporting to someone who isn't their superior by report; but for the sake of a quick and easy formation, it works.

What I've also seen is the cadets form themselves up, and the Commander posts out front (as normal) with the seniors forming from behind the commander and to the side in a separate flight. They have no role during the formation (they don't salute and render the report of the day); they're just there in formation.

Remember, for the purposes of drill and ceremony, this is a Cadet Program function even though seniors may conduct drill as appropriate. For cadets, it's a formal training process. It's not so much for senior, again, in practicality.

If you want a full squadron formation, just expect it to be funky and "unofficial" because there is no such thing from a regulatory/manual standpoint. The Air Force structured their echelons to report to one another (Squadron > Group > Wing), not internal sub-squadrons for ROTC-style training programs. ROTC cadets, similarly, do not form up with cadre generally. The cadre will be off to the side not in the formation.
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lordmonar
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Posts: 10,661

« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2018, 09:05:26 PM »

In a perfect world.......it would be as Eclipse said.

The "Senior Flight" would be headed by the Deputy Commander for Seniors, acting as Flight Commander.

For the Fall In and Report part of a "normal" formation.  the flights would be led by the flight sergeants and the squadron would be led by the First Sergeant.

In CAP terms there is no equivalent..... on the senior side....to these positions.

IN A PERFECT WORLD.

Even in the USAF where our drill and ceremony come from outside of basic training......there are not always these positions.

So......practically.

If for leadership purposes you are letting the cadet first sergeant lead the squadron in reporting.

The "Senior Flight Sergeant" would salute and address the c/first sergeant by sir/ma'am....no matter what the rank.   Just as a C/SMSgt flight sergeant would salute and address a C/MSgt First Sergeant.   You are....for the purposes of D&C saluting the position. 

Eclipse is wrong about saying it would be inappropriate to report to a cadet.   Not in the context of open formation D&C.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Mitchell 1969
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Posts: 861
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2018, 05:54:26 AM »

In a perfect world.......it would be as Eclipse said.

The "Senior Flight" would be headed by the Deputy Commander for Seniors, acting as Flight Commander.

For the Fall In and Report part of a "normal" formation.  the flights would be led by the flight sergeants and the squadron would be led by the First Sergeant.

In CAP terms there is no equivalent..... on the senior side....to these positions.

IN A PERFECT WORLD.

Even in the USAF where our drill and ceremony come from outside of basic training......there are not always these positions.

So......practically.

If for leadership purposes you are letting the cadet first sergeant lead the squadron in reporting.

The "Senior Flight Sergeant" would salute and address the c/first sergeant by sir/ma'am....no matter what the rank.   Just as a C/SMSgt flight sergeant would salute and address a C/MSgt First Sergeant.   You are....for the purposes of D&C saluting the position. 

Eclipse is wrong about saying it would be inappropriate to report to a cadet.   Not in the context of open formation D&C.

That’s exactly how it is done. And the whole thing lasts less than about 60 seconds. Get over it.


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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

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NIN
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Unit: of issue

« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2018, 08:53:02 AM »

Just for an alternate view....

Our seniors participate only in the closing formation.

The first sergeant forms the cadet formation, receives his report, and then provides his accountability to the cadet commander. The seniors fall in to the formation's right flank, and report their accountability to the commander when the time comes.

Nobody "reports to a cadet" because the cadets conduct their part of the formation, and we conduct ours.

(its not to avoid "reporting to a cadet" its just the way we've always done it)

 
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Stonewall
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Posts: 3,937

« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2018, 10:21:01 AM »

Formations, as far as I'm concerned, are a must for cadet and composite squadrons.  I’ve met a lot of seniors disagree, but at my two squadrons between 1995 and 2005, seniors stood in formation in their own flight along with the cadets at the evening's closing formation.  Seniors were excluded at opening formation since most of them strolled in late due to work and family commitments.

This accomplished two things:

1.  squadron unity.
2.  squadron uniformity.

It gave me, as both the DCC and then CC, a chance to address the entire squadron without any members' being distracted.  I had their total attention.  It also encouraged the seniors to wear the uniform of the day.  After about 6 months of doing this, seniors started making the effort to get the two primary uniforms, blues and BDUs.  I have a better picture than this one, with about 15 seniors in formation, but I can’t find it right now.

Lots of people disagree, but then again lots of people disagreed with a lot of things I did as a deputy or commander.  Ironically, our squadrons always thrived.  YMMV.


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GroundHawg
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Posts: 607

« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2018, 01:56:55 PM »

I instituted "Sierra" Flight formations at two different squadrons. As has been stated before, Seniors started showing up on time, in the UOD instead of polo's, recruitment and retention for cadets and seniors rose, and in my opinion everyone's professionalism rose significantly.

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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,573

« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2018, 06:37:37 PM »

I instituted "Sierra" Flight formations at two different squadrons. As has been stated before, Seniors started showing up on time, in the UOD instead of polo's, recruitment and retention for cadets and seniors rose, and in my opinion everyone's professionalism rose significantly.

What do you mean "in the UOD instead of polo's?"

The polo is an equivalent to fatigues. And seniors aren't required to purchase the polo or a utility uniform. At minimum, they must wear service dress, but they don't technically have to go beyond that.
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NIN
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Unit: of issue

« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2018, 06:48:01 PM »

 back then,  the distinction was less clear than it is now. 

It was "USAF-style" and "corporates" (in various forms) with less attention paid to precise equivalencies.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Shawn W.
Member

Posts: 97

« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2018, 07:43:26 PM »

Here’s how we’ve been doing formations at my Squadron..

The C/1st Sgt comes out and takes the report of the Cadet Flight Sgts. The Cadet Commander then comes out and takes the report from the 1st Sgt. Following that the C/1st Sgt and C/Flight Commanders are commanded to post.

The Deputy for Senior stands in front of the Senior Flight and waits. The Squadron commander comes out and takes the report from the Deputy for Seniors and then from the Cadet Commander. The Commander then directs the Squadron to carry out the orders of the day and dismisses us to carry out whatever the schedule is for the night.
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arajca
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Posts: 4,313

« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2018, 09:21:49 PM »

I instituted "Sierra" Flight formations at two different squadrons. As has been stated before, Seniors started showing up on time, in the UOD instead of polo's, recruitment and retention for cadets and seniors rose, and in my opinion everyone's professionalism rose significantly.

What do you mean "in the UOD instead of polo's?"

The polo is an equivalent to fatigues. And seniors aren't required to purchase the polo or a utility uniform. At minimum, they must wear service dress, but they don't technically have to go beyond that.
I think you mean service uniform, not service dress.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,573

« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2018, 11:37:00 AM »

I think you mean service uniform, not service dress.

Correct. My bad. Jumbled my words (and this is why I'm keen to say "Class As" or "Bs")  ;)

Here’s how we’ve been doing formations at my Squadron..

The C/1st Sgt comes out and takes the report of the Cadet Flight Sgts. The Cadet Commander then comes out and takes the report from the 1st Sgt. Following that the C/1st Sgt and C/Flight Commanders are commanded to post.

The Deputy for Senior stands in front of the Senior Flight and waits. The Squadron commander comes out and takes the report from the Deputy for Seniors and then from the Cadet Commander. The Commander then directs the Squadron to carry out the orders of the day and dismisses us to carry out whatever the schedule is for the night.

This is how I've traditionally seen it done, where all seniors fall into a flight under the CDS, including the CDC.

FYI: The command to post should come before the First Sergeant reports to the Cadet Commander. At this time, the Cadet Commander comes out and the Flight Sergeant post next to their flights. The Flight Commanders come out front once the First Sergeant has reported to the Cadet Commander without any formal instruction (it's automatic). Then, the First Sergeant posts behind the left flight. --- This is a cadet adaptation of the AFMAN in the same sequence.

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Shawn W.
Member

Posts: 97

« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2018, 12:20:01 AM »

I think you mean service uniform, not service dress.

Correct. My bad. Jumbled my words (and this is why I'm keen to say "Class As" or "Bs")  ;)

Here’s how we’ve been doing formations at my Squadron..

The C/1st Sgt comes out and takes the report of the Cadet Flight Sgts. The Cadet Commander then comes out and takes the report from the 1st Sgt. Following that the C/1st Sgt and C/Flight Commanders are commanded to post.

The Deputy for Senior stands in front of the Senior Flight and waits. The Squadron commander comes out and takes the report from the Deputy for Seniors and then from the Cadet Commander. The Commander then directs the Squadron to carry out the orders of the day and dismisses us to carry out whatever the schedule is for the night.

This is how I've traditionally seen it done, where all seniors fall into a flight under the CDS, including the CDC.

FYI: The command to post should come before the First Sergeant reports to the Cadet Commander. At this time, the Cadet Commander comes out and the Flight Sergeant post next to their flights. The Flight Commanders come out front once the First Sergeant has reported to the Cadet Commander without any formal instruction (it's automatic). Then, the First Sergeant posts behind the left flight. --- This is a cadet adaptation of the AFMAN in the same sequence.



That is correct.. my mind was a little fuzzy when I wrote this. Thank you for the correction.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,573

« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2018, 03:37:20 PM »

I think you mean service uniform, not service dress.

Correct. My bad. Jumbled my words (and this is why I'm keen to say "Class As" or "Bs")  ;)

Here’s how we’ve been doing formations at my Squadron..

The C/1st Sgt comes out and takes the report of the Cadet Flight Sgts. The Cadet Commander then comes out and takes the report from the 1st Sgt. Following that the C/1st Sgt and C/Flight Commanders are commanded to post.

The Deputy for Senior stands in front of the Senior Flight and waits. The Squadron commander comes out and takes the report from the Deputy for Seniors and then from the Cadet Commander. The Commander then directs the Squadron to carry out the orders of the day and dismisses us to carry out whatever the schedule is for the night.

This is how I've traditionally seen it done, where all seniors fall into a flight under the CDS, including the CDC.

FYI: The command to post should come before the First Sergeant reports to the Cadet Commander. At this time, the Cadet Commander comes out and the Flight Sergeant post next to their flights. The Flight Commanders come out front once the First Sergeant has reported to the Cadet Commander without any formal instruction (it's automatic). Then, the First Sergeant posts behind the left flight. --- This is a cadet adaptation of the AFMAN in the same sequence.



That is correct.. my mind was a little fuzzy when I wrote this. Thank you for the correction.

No worries.  ;D
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