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September 20, 2018, 04:30:14 PM
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Cadet Flight Duty Uniform
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Author Topic: Cadet Flight Duty Uniform  (Read 2469 times)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2018, 11:44:12 AM »

The only members who are "unclear" on the intent of the wear instructions for the FDUs,
and this includes the previous revisions of 39-1 as well, are those looking to wear the FDU
in lieu of a more appropriate uniform.

Trying to justify wearing it at a random Tuesday-evening unit meeting in a squadron without an airport
within 30 NM because "I went to NESA in ought-5" speaks volumes about the member.

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LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,830
Unit: Earth

« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2018, 12:34:49 PM »

Quote
"8.1.1.1. <snip> Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate."

The only opinion that matters in this little uniform debate is your wing commander.  He/she is responsible for determining when the FDU/CFDU is appropriate.  If he/she determines that wearing it to a random Tuesday-evening unit meeting is appropriate, then you are good to go, regardless of the opinions on Facebook, CAPTalk, or any other member outside your wing.  If he/she determines it is not appropriate, then it is not appropriate.  After all, the wing commander is the person that makes the decision as to what qualifies as "other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations" for personnel that hold or have previously held an aircrew or aeronautical rating.   
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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,929
Unit: of issue

« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2018, 04:37:12 PM »

Quote
"8.1.1.1. <snip> Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate."

The only opinion that matters in this little uniform debate is your wing commander.  He/she is responsible for determining when the FDU/CFDU is appropriate.  If he/she determines that wearing it to a random Tuesday-evening unit meeting is appropriate, then you are good to go, regardless of the opinions on Facebook, CAPTalk, or any other member outside your wing.  If he/she determines it is not appropriate, then it is not appropriate.  After all, the wing commander is the person that makes the decision as to what qualifies as "other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations" for personnel that hold or have previously held an aircrew or aeronautical rating.   

Pretty much this.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2018, 04:55:52 PM »

Your squadron commander can say "No flight duty uniforms at the weekly squadron meeting." They have that discretion under CAPM 39-1, 2.10.3.
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Castle Bravo
Recruit

Posts: 31

« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2018, 12:19:43 AM »

Not to hijack this thread or anything but I felt like making my own for this wouldn’t be necessary. So the current 39-1 says that the undergarment to be worn is a black T-shirt but I read something put together by a squadron from 2008 that said that you could wear a black T-shirt or a “brown” T-shirt. Is that just a case of misinformation or were we allowed to wear two different shirts back then? Just a bit curious is all.
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NovemberWhiskey
Recruit

Posts: 13
Unit: NER-NY-301

« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2018, 12:23:54 AM »

Refer to CAPM 39-1 attachment 9: the brown (also white!?) T-shirt with FDU was removed effective 1 Jan 2015.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 09:41:04 AM »

Not to hijack this thread or anything but I felt like making my own for this wouldn’t be necessary. So the current 39-1 says that the undergarment to be worn is a black T-shirt but I read something put together by a squadron from 2008 that said that you could wear a black T-shirt or a “brown” T-shirt. Is that just a case of misinformation or were we allowed to wear two different shirts back then? Just a bit curious is all.

Refer to CAPM 39-1 attachment 9: the brown (also white!?) T-shirt with FDU was removed effective 1 Jan 2015.

In short, BDUs were once worn with several different shirt colors. CAP eliminated, in all but a few outstanding exceptions, the color variations and solely went with the black undershirt.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 09:53:08 AM »

^ One of the small, but welcome victories.  I >hated< the look of the white t-shirt with the CFU,
especially when it wasn't especially "white".
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 813

« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 10:00:51 PM »

Are we still debating the flight suit wear issue or has that been put to bed?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 10:07:16 PM »

Are we still debating the flight suit wear issue or has that been put to bed?

What's to debate? The regs are clear.

Only when flying, and only >after< the member has a rating.
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 813

« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 10:21:28 PM »

Are we still debating the flight suit wear issue or has that been put to bed?

What's to debate? The regs are clear.

Only when flying, and only >after< the member has a rating.

But that's not how they read:

The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional
clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation,
preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations.


If it said "are performing" or "are on their way to or from performing" then I would agree that it's limited. It looks similar to the AF definition that if a person is in a flying AFSC then they wear the bag as their duty uniform regardless of performing flying duties that day.

This one makes it even more unclear:

The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical
rating as defined by CAPR 35-6


"or previously had?" That makes it sound like a person who was an observer back in the 60s could continue to wear the FDU anytime that they wanted. A person who previously had a rating would have no reason to wear it once they were no longer qualified.

The regs do not seem to be clear.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 10:50:05 PM »

The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical
rating as defined by CAPR 35-6


"or previously had?" That makes it sound like a person who was an observer back in the 60s could continue to wear the FDU anytime that they wanted. A person who previously had a rating would have no reason to wear it once they were no longer qualified.

A person who previously had an aviation rating back in the 60s, and is working to re-qual, could wear the FDU.

A person who has never held an aviation rating cannot wear the FDU until he has attained that rating.

As per your quote, in both cases it would be while performing aviation particular duties.
That is, admittedly, subjective, but does not a unit meeting 80 miles from a plane, or
Ground Team training, etc.  Common sense should prevail over inconvenience or affectation.
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 813

« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 11:13:14 PM »

The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical
rating as defined by CAPR 35-6


"or previously had?" That makes it sound like a person who was an observer back in the 60s could continue to wear the FDU anytime that they wanted. A person who previously had a rating would have no reason to wear it once they were no longer qualified.

A person who previously had an aviation rating back in the 60s, and is working to re-qual, could wear the FDU.

A person who has never held an aviation rating cannot wear the FDU until he has attained that rating.

As per your quote, in both cases it would be while performing aviation particular duties.
That is, admittedly, subjective, but does not a unit meeting 80 miles from a plane, or
Ground Team training, etc.  Common sense should prevail over inconvenience or affectation.

I have a feeling that we are going to end up going around the same circle because the reg is poorly worded. Or maybe it's on purpose because the prohibition is not actually there...  ;)

Based on the first quote a person can wear the FDU without attaining a rating. It says nothing about being rated, only that they perform flight duties. An un-rated scanner trainee can wear the FDU as could an unqualified re-trainee (that is covered further down in that paragraph of the reg).

The regs are not clear and as you said, subjective. And my quote does not say "performing", it says "perform". Going to a meeting 80 miles from a plane in a FDU is not a big deal if the person is a qualified aircrew member but I agree that it's not the best choice for GT training.

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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 806
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #33 on: Today at 01:33:23 AM »

The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical
rating as defined by CAPR 35-6


"or previously had?" That makes it sound like a person who was an observer back in the 60s could continue to wear the FDU anytime that they wanted. A person who previously had a rating would have no reason to wear it once they were no longer qualified.

A person who previously had an aviation rating back in the 60s, and is working to re-qual, could wear the FDU.

A person who has never held an aviation rating cannot wear the FDU until he has attained that rating.

As per your quote, in both cases it would be while performing aviation particular duties.
That is, admittedly, subjective, but does not a unit meeting 80 miles from a plane, or
Ground Team training, etc.  Common sense should prevail over inconvenience or affectation.

It’s poorly worded. But, worded it is. Once the end of the words has been reached, the path transitions to opinions. You have posted yours. It is not regulatory or governing. It is simply your opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,873

« Reply #34 on: Today at 11:06:47 AM »

Mother of pearl....

It's simple: flying? Wear it. Not flying? Don't wear it.

What's next?
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #35 on: Today at 11:11:52 AM »

Mother of pearl....

It's simple: flying? Wear it. Not flying? Don't wear it.

What's next?

Seriously - another of CAP's top ten problems - people doing mental gymnastics to be able to do something
they know is clearly in violation of the spirit of poorly worded regs.

Any reasonable person, absent of the agenda of "But I really want to..." would understand the intent and
just comply and move on.
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 813

« Reply #36 on: Today at 11:14:35 AM »

Mother of pearl....

It's simple: flying? Wear it. Not flying? Don't wear it.

What's next?

And how we're at the dead horse.

That would be an appropriate response from the unit commander, or wing commander as the reg states, but the point is that your interpretation is an opinion and not what is stated in the reg.

Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 813

« Reply #37 on: Today at 11:20:16 AM »

Mother of pearl....

It's simple: flying? Wear it. Not flying? Don't wear it.

What's next?

Seriously - another of CAP's top ten problems - people doing mental gymnastics to be able to do something
they know is clearly in violation of the spirit of poorly worded regs.

Any reasonable person, absent of the agenda of "But I really want to..." would understand the intent and
just comply and move on.

No one here has mentioned anything about attempting to do something in violation of a reg. The wing commander makes the final determination of when it is appropriate to wear that uniform in his/her wing and some personal opinions were not consistent with the way the reg is worded.
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,663

« Reply #38 on: Today at 11:34:51 AM »

Question: What would be the best example of "attempting to do something in violation of a reg?"

Answer: "Some personal opinions were not consistent with the way the reg is worded."



« Last Edit: Today at 12:22:37 PM by Luis R. Ramos » Logged

Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #39 on: Today at 11:42:58 AM »

Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.

So...members should email the Wing CC each time they go to a meeting and ask if they
can wear a given uniforms?

Or maybe there should be a report that's updated each week so when people get a rating
the Wing CC can access it to be able to respond?

Or...

Wear a flight suit when you're going to be in a CAP plane, and not when you're not.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Cadet Flight Duty Uniform
 


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