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stratocaster29
Newbie

Posts: 1
Unit: SWR-TX-051

« on: July 29, 2018, 12:13:03 PM »

Hey all, I've been doing some research more into CAP uniforms and I have a couple questions about the FDU and CFDU and Utility Coverall:

1) Would a cadet with a pre-solo flight rating be authorized to wear any of the 3?
2) What is the wear regulation in regards to regular squadron meetings?
3) Can cadets without any aeronautical rating wear any of the 3?
4) Cadets with outside solo endorsements authorized to wear any of the 3?

Sorry if these are stupid questions... I was not aware of cadet authorization of these until recently.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2018, 12:35:05 PM »

(Double posting is not necessary and violates the TOS).

Hey all, I've been doing some research more into CAP uniforms and I have a couple questions about the FDU and CFDU and Utility Coverall:

1) Would a cadet with a pre-solo flight rating be authorized to wear any of the 3?
No - "Pre solo" is not a flight rating.

2) What is the wear regulation in regards to regular squadron meetings?
Worn when you participate in aviation activities only.

3) Can cadets without any aeronautical rating wear any of the 3?
No.

4) Cadets with outside solo endorsements authorized to wear any of the 3?
No.

CAPM 39-1:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf

Page 95
"8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional
clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties.
Flight duty includes preparation,
preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The
FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical
rating as defined by CAPR 35-6
, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and
Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot,
observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission
qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on
days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and
CFDU wear is appropriate. "
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,281

« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2018, 04:10:59 PM »

See responses in italics in line in the quote.

Hey all, I've been doing some research more into CAP uniforms and I have a couple questions about the FDU and CFDU and Utility Coverall:

1) Would a cadet with a pre-solo flight rating be authorized to wear any of the 3? Is the pre-solo rating listed as a CAP aeronautical rating in CAPR 35-6?
2) What is the wear regulation in regards to regular squadron meetings? Does the regular squadron meeting include flight duties as listed in CAPM 39-1, para 8.1.1.1. ?
3) Can cadets without any aeronautical rating wear any of the 3? Reference CAPM 39-1, para 8.1.1.1.
4) Cadets with outside solo endorsements authorized to wear any of the 3? Is this a CAP aernautical rating?

Sorry if these are stupid questions... I was not aware of cadet authorization of these until recently.
Not necessarily stupid, just need to read the manual and follow the references. Also, follow your commander's guidance.
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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 806
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2018, 04:38:02 PM »

(Double posting is not necessary and violates the TOS).

Hey all, I've been doing some research more into CAP uniforms and I have a couple questions about the FDU and CFDU and Utility Coverall:

1) Would a cadet with a pre-solo flight rating be authorized to wear any of the 3?
No - "Pre solo" is not a flight rating.

2) What is the wear regulation in regards to regular squadron meetings?
Worn when you participate in aviation activities only.

3) Can cadets without any aeronautical rating wear any of the 3?
No.

4) Cadets with outside solo endorsements authorized to wear any of the 3?
No.

CAPM 39-1:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf

Page 95
"8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional
clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties.
Flight duty includes preparation,
preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The
FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical
rating as defined by CAPR 35-6
, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and
Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot,
observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission
qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on
days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and
CFDU wear is appropriate. "



With regard to your comment about regular squadron meetings, it doesn't say, as you claim,  ”Worn when you participate in aviation activities only.” It says they are for people ”who perform” aviation particular duties, not mandating that they are performING them at that exact moment or even on that day. In fact, they are authorized for people who formerly held ratings,  for whom ”Worn when you participate in aviation activities only” becomes essentially meaningless.

The ”actual flying” restriction applies to people not rated or not formerly rated. Don't mix them up, please.




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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,663

« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2018, 06:01:39 PM »

What kind of aviation-related duties do you perform in most squadron meetings, where you find that most squadrons do not have airplanes assigned to them? Are you calling the "flight-related duties" members arranging for O-flights?

HA!

Give me a break!

What is quoted, if you apply common logic, means that you cannot wear FDU or CDFU at a squadron meeting where you are not flying! It is clear. You are not preparing for a flight, you cannot wear FDU or CDFU.







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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2018, 08:51:26 PM »

The quote literally says exactly what is considered "flight duty",
and that verbiage does not include regular meetings.
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MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,903
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2018, 09:06:24 PM »

Question to ask yourself when considering wearing a flight suit.

1. Am I going directly to a flight in a CAP Aircraft?

2. Do I have an CAP Aeronautical rating? Pilot, Observer, scanner, Aerial Photographer, or Flight Crew?

3. If the Answer to one and two are Yes. wear the suit. If no DON'T
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 435
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2018, 10:19:27 PM »

The quote literally says exactly what is considered "flight duty",
and that verbiage does not include regular meetings.

"The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties."

So we find out who can wear FDU above. Below defines duties that they must perform. No where is there a restriction that they ONLY wear the FDU while performing those duties.

"Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. "

Then the regs address who may wear FDU when not otherwise authorized above:

"Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated."
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 435
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2018, 10:20:44 PM »

1. Am I going directly to a flight in a CAP Aircraft?
Where do the regs say that?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2018, 10:39:09 PM »

1. Am I going directly to a flight in a CAP Aircraft?
Where do the regs say that?

"Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations."
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 435
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2018, 10:48:06 PM »

"Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations."
Yep, that defines who can wear the FDU, where does it restrict same to just those activities?
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,400
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2018, 10:54:08 PM »

"Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations."
Yep, that defines who can wear the FDU, where does it restrict same to just those activities?
This?
CAPM 39-1:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf

Page 95
"8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional
clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties.
Flight duty includes preparation,
preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The
FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical
rating as defined by CAPR 35-6
, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and
Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot,
observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission
qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on
days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and
CFDU wear is appropriate."


Unless you can provide contrary information from a different reg, I think this is pretty clear. If you are asking your Q just to "stir the pot", you can stop now.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 806
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2018, 01:31:07 AM »

1. Am I going directly to a flight in a CAP Aircraft?
Where do the regs say that?

"Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations."

You omitted the paragraph containing ”who perform” vs your interpretation which is ”are performing.” Nowhere does it say that the aviation duties must be performed during every minute where that uniform is worn. Also, consider, as I mentioned earlier, that persons who formerly held ratings may wear that uniform as well, with nary a flight duty being contemplated.

This is yet another poorly worded piece of direction. In the absence of clarity, it comes down to opinion. You (and others) have yours, I (and different others) disagree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 435
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2018, 09:13:14 AM »


You omitted the paragraph containing ”who perform” vs your interpretation which is ”are performing.” Nowhere does it say that the aviation duties must be performed during every minute where that uniform is worn. Also, consider, as I mentioned earlier, that persons who formerly held ratings may wear that uniform as well, with nary a flight duty being contemplated.

This is yet another poorly worded piece of direction. In the absence of clarity, it comes down to opinion. You (and others) have yours, I (and different others) disagree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep. Pot stirrer? Not sure but if you cannot perform flight duties but can wear the uniform, sounds like it is not a uniform restricted to JUST flight duty. Nor does that phrase ('restricted to flight duty') appear anywhere in the regs.
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foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 165

« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2018, 09:35:56 AM »

You omitted the paragraph containing ”who perform” vs your interpretation which is ”are performing.” Nowhere does it say that the aviation duties must be performed during every minute where that uniform is worn. Also, consider, as I mentioned earlier, that persons who formerly held ratings may wear that uniform as well, with nary a flight duty being contemplated.

I think that is addressed later in the same paragraph:

Quote
Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated.

Also consider the use of the term "functional clothing" in the regulation. I'm trying to think of ways the unique functionality of a flight suit would be beneficial at weekly squadron meetings that are in many cases not even held at an aviation facility.

Quote from: Mitchell 1969
This is yet another poorly worded piece of direction. In the absence of clarity, it comes down to opinion. You (and others) have yours, I (and different others) disagree.

No argument there. I will also add that I've never seen a CAP-RAP wearing anything other than a flight suit during a squadron visit, so it seems this gray area is not limited to CAP.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 435
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2018, 09:42:03 AM »



I think that is addressed later in the same paragraph:

Quote
Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated.
A clear implication is that those who have current ratings may wear same on other than days "when actual flying is planned or anticipated", moreover even those restricted to said days, appear to be able to wear FDU during non-flight activities.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 435
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2018, 09:42:51 AM »

I will also add that I've never seen a CAP-RAP wearing anything other than a flight suit during a squadron visit, so it seems this gray area is not limited to CAP.
Flight crews in active units wear FDU almost all of the time.
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foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 165

« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2018, 10:14:30 AM »



I think that is addressed later in the same paragraph:

Quote
Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated.
A clear implication is that those who have current ratings may wear same on other than days "when actual flying is planned or anticipated", moreover even those restricted to said days, appear to be able to wear FDU during non-flight activities.

Many seem to disagree, making the implication rather unclear.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2018, 10:27:34 AM »

Hey all, I've been doing some research more into CAP uniforms and I have a couple questions about the FDU and CFDU and Utility Coverall:

Corporate uniforms are worn only be senior members, or cadets who are over 18 that do not meet the height and weight standards for the Air Force-style uniform.

If you are under 18, you will not wear the corporate.
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,281

« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2018, 11:21:50 AM »



I think that is addressed later in the same paragraph:

Quote
Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated.
A clear implication is that those who have current ratings may wear same on other than days "when actual flying is planned or anticipated", moreover even those restricted to said days, appear to be able to wear FDU during non-flight activities.

Many seem to disagree, making the implication rather unclear.
Many also seem to think that because CAP is flying somewhere, they can wear the flightsuit. I've had a member make that argument to me when I was a unit commander. I managed not to laugh in their face, but it wasn't easy.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Cadet Flight Duty Uniform
 


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