Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 21, 2018, 03:29:02 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Non-member participation...
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Non-member participation...  (Read 1867 times)
USMCVeteransDaughter
Newbie

Posts: 4

« on: July 27, 2018, 10:57:55 PM »

I have a general question about non-members. What activities are non-members allowed to participate in? And where in the regs does it state what/how non-members are allowed to participate?

I believe we have a bit of misunderstanding in our squadron. I don’t want to give many details... just looking for clarification.

Thank you all!
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2018, 11:41:13 PM »

Essentially no where, other then the occasional ceremonial dinner, etc.

You won't find many places where non-members are even mentioned, because
the assumption is you have to be a member.

In transportation situations such as aircraft or ground vehicles, there needs to
be multi-approvals and high-level justification.

In situations where a non-member might be an instructor, or "running" an activity
such as an HAA, there are always members in defacto command, and cadets
are never left in non-members charge.

The occasional parent helping out when their kid is a cadet and we need more pizza?
Yes.

Regularly attending meetings with anything but a "sitting quietly in the back and watching posture"?
No.

If you're talking about potential members, then CAPR 60-1 spells out what cadet recruits
can do during their 3-week visits (and NO LONGER), senior members it's a little more
subjective, but certainly nothing of consequence, nor anything operational that falls into OPSEC.

Also, as is frequently misunderstood, being in the military does not give anyone special
powers, authority, or waivers for the membership rules.  CAP-USAF people have their
own related regulations in regards to participating with CAP, and obviously a vested interest,
but even they don't have any inherent authority over members - only general go / no go
related to safety (and some say about purse strings, which can become defacto authority).

But some random service officer or enlisted chap who happens to show up to meetings
isn't any more, or less, allowed to participate then anyone else.  They have to be members
or they have to leave, and if they participate, it's required to be in a CAP uniform, not their
service uniform, even if it looks similar.
Logged


USMCVeteransDaughter
Newbie

Posts: 4

« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2018, 12:02:30 AM »

Thank you so very much for your clarification! You covered just about every scenario that could come up. This will help if/when I need to address the situation.  :)
Logged
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2018, 02:19:25 AM »

Non member parents/guardians are free to observe any CAP meeting or activity whenever reasonably possible.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager
(Currently in Korea on IACE)
Logged
USMCVeteransDaughter
Newbie

Posts: 4

« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2018, 01:52:11 PM »

Thank you very much! I'm hoping your answers help clear up any confusion.
Logged
Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 360
Unit: GA

« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2018, 10:41:45 PM »


If you're talking about potential members, then CAPR 60-1 spells out what cadet recruits
can do during their 3-week visits (and NO LONGER)

CAPR 60-1 refers to CAPR 39-2

CAPR 60-1:
Quote
3.1.2.
Cadet and Parent Orientation. Units will provide prospective cadets with a detailed, systematic orientation that transforms those young people into cadet airmen within 60 days. A parents’ orientation is also required. Units using CAPP 60-21 satisfy these requirements.

3.1.3.
Participation by Prospective Cadets. CAPR 39-2 explains what prospective cadets may do and are prohibited from doing at CAP activities, prior to their membership taking effect.

CAPR 39-2
Quote
2.2.8.
Prospective  cadets  visiting  a  traditional  unit  must  participate  in  a  trial  period  by attending three squadron meetings before requesting membership.  Unit commanders will not approve  membership  applications  (online  or  in  paper  form)  until  the  prospective  cadet  has 
attended his or her third squadron meeting.  Commanders of school-sponsored units...

2.2.8.1.
During the trial period, unit commanders will only permit prospective cadets to participate in cadet activities that are not physically rigorous, including classroom activities, drill and ceremonies, and low-impact field activities such as rocketry, simple orienteering, volleyball, and similar  endeavors,  provided  the  young  person  reports  to  have  no  physical  limitations or injuries.

2.2.8.2.
Prospective cadets are prohibited from participating in overnight activities, flying, riding  in  CAP  vehicles,  participating  in  physically-rigorous  field  activities  such  as  hiking  and  obstacle course, and participating in any activity that would qualify as “high adventure” per CAPR 52-16, chapter 2.

By the way, what do you mean by no longer than 3 meetings? CAPR 60-1 gives them 60 days, which is much longer than 3 meetings, and there is no mention of a meeting requirement (Other than the minimum 3-meetings)
Logged
Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)

NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, 17
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
GAWG NCOA 18
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2018, 11:01:13 PM »

Fair enough on the 60 days, what I meant was, you can't have situations like the one that was
exposed here where a young man (was it NVWG?) apparently acted as a member in excess of a year without joining.

You can't have cadets, or seniors for that matter, just hanging around for weeks or months "thinking about joining".
Logged


USMCVeteransDaughter
Newbie

Posts: 4

« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2018, 01:01:38 PM »

I am aware of the 3 meeting minimum... but I also agree, there needs to be a timely decision made whether they are going to join or not. It took me a year to finally make the decision to join... but I didn't go to every meeting... just the occasional visit to observe and see what all my daughter was doing and do the normal, proud mom thing! I knew my place and respected the leaders and authority of those in charge.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2018, 01:28:21 PM »

And that's the key "reasonable" and "common sense", which is why tight lines needs to be
drawn, and then good CCs can make reasonable decisions to accommodate real-life.

The problem with CAP is the inconsistency of training and experience in CCs and staff - you
see it regularly in the kinds of questions that are asked here (thankfully they are asked!),
which many times reveal serious local issues no one was even aware of before someone asked the question.

CAP is a transperant situation and parents are always welcome - but some don't understand that
"welcome" doesn't mean you can get on the plane ("but that's my kid"), or access a secure military
installation without authorization (BTDT10).

It's a risk mitigation issue for all parties - members are afforded any number of protections
by the corporation when they participate in activities, bystanders do not, and worse,
are a risk >to< the membership as until they are checked out, you really don't know
who the heck they are.
Logged


TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2018, 10:44:07 AM »

I am aware of the 3 meeting minimum... but I also agree, there needs to be a timely decision made whether they are going to join or not. It took me a year to finally make the decision to join... but I didn't go to every meeting... just the occasional visit to observe and see what all my daughter was doing and do the normal, proud mom thing! I knew my place and respected the leaders and authority of those in charge.

But in this case, you're a parent with a cadet in the program, not a stranger lurking around out of curiosity.

CAP is a transperant situation and parents are always welcome - but some don't understand that
"welcome" doesn't mean you can get on the plane ("but that's my kid"), or access a secure military
installation without authorization (BTDT10).

And that's where the line gets drawn to being too close or too far away from the program.

There are some situations that parents are absolutely welcome to attend, and encouraged. Look at orientation flights. It's a real buy-in from parents and a retention booster when mom or dad can be at the airport and watch their cadet get in/out of the airplane, especially on the first flight. We had flights over the weekend. Mom hung around and took pictures. She asked "Can I be here?" "Absolutely. It's a civilian airport. Just be mindful of anyone's property on the ramp or in the hangar like you would at any other facility."

Then there are situations where parents are way too involved in whatever is going on. You see this at Encampments. There have been cases of parents wanting to go to the dorms/barracks to help their cadets unpack at the start or pack up at the end. No bueno. Some Encampments have had drop-off outside of the base entry gate so that parents couldn't make it in for "security reasons."

At the weekly unit meeting, I don't want parents to get involved unless they are specifically asked. "Well, maybe this would be fun. We could teach this." "Yeah, great, uh huh. I'll run that by the staff." This isn't your playground; go away. Now, we've had some awesome parents step up when requested to help out with training, but it's coordinated through the staff, not just a random volunteer show-up and start teaching.

A great way for parents to get involved is to have them join as Cadet Sponsor Members. Now they can go on the field trips and lead the tour group (not just stand in the back with a camera), and get them into the unit photo outside the museum. They can participate and assist where needed without breaking the boundary concern lines. And it's so much easier to convince a 6-month sponsor to become a "full senior member." I joke with my sponsors that my entire intent is to get them to join as full senior members since they show up to every meeting." It's a great help to have a sponsor supervise the cadets when they're outside doing God knows what without having an active training role, so the cadets get a better sense of managing their own program in a safer environment. I've had sponsor join in PT runs and do push-up challenges against cadets. So it's a huge benefit.

If mom or dad wants to sit around and get involved more, get them to join as a sponsor and get their Level I, especially the CPP Training.
Logged
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,929
Unit: of issue

« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2018, 01:19:38 PM »

By the way, what do you mean by no longer than 3 meetings? CAPR 60-1 gives them 60 days, which is much longer than 3 meetings, and there is no mention of a meeting requirement (Other than the minimum 3-meetings)

60 days is the "approximate time from zero to hero," not "you can laze around for up to 60 days before you turn in your paperwork."

IOW, by the end of 60-ish days, we should be making you an Airman (and its minimum, what, 30 days for Curry?)

Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Capmonkey
Member

Posts: 72

« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2018, 02:12:54 PM »

If I'm not mistaken, there is no time requirement for Curry, sir. I believe once your membership is approved, you immediately begin testing. For all intensive purposes, a new cadet could become Airman in a week   :D

C/Maj Capmonkey
Logged
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,929
Unit: of issue

« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2018, 02:19:21 PM »

If I'm not mistaken, there is no time requirement for Curry, sir. I believe once your membership is approved, you immediately begin testing. For all intensive purposes, a new cadet could become Airman in a week   :D

That could very well be the case.  I guess what I meant (and didn't precisely say) was that Curry is a "quick one" while everything else is on a 56-day completion.

Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,559
Unit: Classified

« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2018, 02:21:25 PM »

If I'm not mistaken, there is no time requirement for Curry, sir. I believe once your membership is approved, you immediately begin testing. For all intensive purposes, a new cadet could become Airman in a week   :D

C/Maj Capmonkey

So a PT test
Curry Test
PRB
Wingman course
Opsec
Eo

All in a week? 
Logged
Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 360
Unit: GA

« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2018, 02:38:43 PM »

By the way, what do you mean by no longer than 3 meetings? CAPR 60-1 gives them 60 days, which is much longer than 3 meetings, and there is no mention of a meeting requirement (Other than the minimum 3-meetings)

60 days is the "approximate time from zero to hero," not "you can laze around for up to 60 days before you turn in your paperwork."

IOW, by the end of 60-ish days, we should be making you an Airman (and its minimum, what, 30 days for Curry?)

For Curry there is no wait, they can test out once they are in the system. See CAPR 60-1, 5.6.2.1

As for the 60 days, all I was trying to state was that there isn't a rule stating that potential cadets have a maximum of 3 meetings to decide on whether or not that the squadron/CAP is for them. And the refs
Logged
Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)

NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, 17
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
GAWG NCOA 18
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2018, 02:39:17 PM »

All in a week?

Sure - timing is everything, but it's not impossible, especially with hyper-motivated
cadets or when they may have family in CAP, etc.

Probably the biggest pinch-point is wingman, but it's not a big deal if there's a reason
to get it done expediently like an upcoming encampment or similar activity.

It's not optimal by any means - we had a fair amount of wet Currys at encampment
this year and you can definitely tell when core values and the basics of CAP haven't had
time to bake in, but then again, where better to get things squared away then an encampment?
Logged


MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,903
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2018, 02:39:45 PM »

Curry test upon receiving their membership notification
PRB, not required, except for Milestone tests
Wingman/CD and CPFT can be done as a potential cadet and added to their record upon membership
OPSEC is done automatically when first enrolling in E-Services.
EO can be done at the same time by clicking Yes on the statement
Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 360
Unit: GA

« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2018, 02:40:55 PM »

If I'm not mistaken, there is no time requirement for Curry, sir. I believe once your membership is approved, you immediately begin testing. For all intensive purposes, a new cadet could become Airman in a week   :D

C/Maj Capmonkey

So a PT test
Curry Test
PRB
Wingman course
Opsec
Eo

All in a week?

Yeah, some squadrons do have their own orientation programs that help get cadets these requirements quickly... the quicker they do it, the quicker they get involved and potentially stay in the program. My old squadron would have a class during the regular meeting for several of the brand new cadets if they joined at the same time and if there was one of the Saturday AEX meetings, they would coordinate so that they got all the requirements done while still being ae th participate in the AEX
Logged
Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)

NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, 17
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
GAWG NCOA 18
Capmonkey
Member

Posts: 72

« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2018, 02:41:41 PM »

If I'm not mistaken, there is no time requirement for Curry, sir. I believe once your membership is approved, you immediately begin testing. For all intensive purposes, a new cadet could become Airman in a week   :D

C/Maj Capmonkey

So a PT test
Curry Test
PRB
Wingman course
Opsec
Eo

All in a week?

Theoretically, yes. Chapter 1 of L2L isn't that difficult and can be done in an hr at home on the cadet's own time, as well as OPSEC. The other components (Wingman Course, PT Test, PRB) can be done in a week as well. It may stretch into 2 weeks, but I've had cadets promote in a week and be ready for a PRB the next week. It all depends on the efficiency of the Cadet Staff in the Sq. IMO
Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2018, 03:13:59 PM »

If I'm not mistaken, there is no time requirement for Curry, sir. I believe once your membership is approved, you immediately begin testing. For all intensive purposes, a new cadet could become Airman in a week   :D

C/Maj Capmonkey

So a PT test
Curry Test
PRB
Wingman course
Opsec
Eo

All in a week?

I've seen units do just that.

Keep in mind that the review board does not have to meet with the cadet and does not have to be formal.

PRB, not required, except for Milestone tests

The "board" should still discuss the cadet's promotion before it happens. The formal feedback session needs to happen within the phase.



Using the Cadet Great Start method, your cadets should not promote in the first week. NHQ recommends a 5-week Great Start program, with testing in Week 4.

Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Non-member participation...
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.069 seconds with 25 queries.
click here to email me