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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Communications with National Guard helos
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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,604

« on: July 24, 2018, 06:49:08 PM »

Most of the National Guard birds I've worked on have 800 Mhz radios intended to communicate with EMS/LE. Not sure of active duty aircraft, but looking at one thing at a time.

What I'm wondering is, does CAP have anything that would allow communication with Guard helos? I'm talking ground to air type commo.
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sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,202

« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2018, 07:28:20 PM »

In our state the Guard helos also have VHF-FM in addition to 800. CAP can talk to them on the VHF mutual aid channels and we have a limited number of 800s that we could talk to them on, but the VHF channels are preferred.

Mike
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NovemberWhiskey
Recruit

Posts: 16
Unit: NER-NY-301

« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2018, 08:13:18 PM »

In the SAR context, 123.1 MHz on the air-band (VHF AM) is designated by the ITU and NTIA for on-scene search-and-rescue coordination, including between mobile and air units. CAPR 100-1 section 7.4.6 authorizes use of this frequency for coordination with other agencies during search-and-rescue operations.

Therefore, any ground team equipped with an air-band transceiver would be permitted to use this frequency. That may not be standard CAP issue, but I suspect most units have access to one.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 08:21:58 PM by NovemberWhiskey » Logged
Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,604

« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2018, 06:46:34 AM »

Those answers address a few things. I am thinking something that every unit would have, and not using in a SAR context, so the 123.1 is not really what I'm looking at. Does the VHF FM stuff they have cover our radio frequencies? Basically, can they pull up [frequency] or [frequency], and talk to us without any serious hoops to jump through?

Considering the air band transceiver, is there a general freq that CAP would be able to use? A frequency (or a particular channel if that is how it's selected) that could be selected on a generally available radio? Kind of like the ramp frequency at most airfields?

[Edit: Removed what is technically FOUO comms information. I know, I know, its probably on 800 websites relating to SWL and stuff, but its still FOUO and needs to be treated as such.
  -NIN (who is not normally a mod or anything, but occasionally jumps in to help the mod team)]
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 08:25:28 AM by NIN » Logged
sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,202

« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2018, 07:36:45 PM »

Quote
I am thinking something that every unit would have, and not using in a SAR context, so the 123.1 is not really what I'm looking at.
So what do you need to talk to them about?

Quote
Does the VHF FM stuff they have cover our radio frequencies?
Yes.

Quote
Basically, can they pull up [frequency] or [frequency], and talk to us without any serious hoops to jump through?
As long as those are mutual aid frequencies. They don't have CAP frequencies programmed in their radios, nor do they want or need them, and we don't have theirs.  We can talk on mutual aid channels which are programmed in their radios and our radios. If the event involves Guard helos and CAP, then it most likely involves other agencies, too. Both the Guard and CAP wing have their own 800 talk groups, but those aren't programmed into each other's radios for the same reasons.

Quote
Considering the air band transceiver, is there a general freq that CAP would be able to use?
No.

Quote
A frequency (or a particular channel if that is how it's selected) that could be selected on a generally available radio? Kind of like the ramp frequency at most airfields?
Radio frequencies are assigned for specific uses. You need a license and/or authorization to talk on them, just having a radio that covers a specific frequency or band doesn't make it OK to talk on it.

Mike
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,266

« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2018, 08:17:00 PM »

Have never needed to talk to Army National Guard Helos, ever.
Sheriff Department, Fire Department and California Highway Patrol aircraft, yes. Mutual Aid frequencies made this a non-problem.
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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,604

« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2018, 11:07:20 AM »

Quote
Does the VHF FM stuff they have cover our radio frequencies?
Yes.

Quote
Basically, can they pull up [frequency] or [frequency], and talk to us without any serious hoops to jump through?
As long as those are mutual aid frequencies. They don't have CAP frequencies programmed in their radios, nor do they want or need them, and we don't have theirs.  We can talk on mutual aid channels which are programmed in their radios and our radios. If the event involves Guard helos and CAP, then it most likely involves other agencies, too. Both the Guard and CAP wing have their own 800 talk groups, but those aren't programmed into each other's radios for the same reasons.

Useful info. Might have to look at what mutual aid frequencies are generally available. As well as who can use what.

Gives me a lot to work with. Appreciate it.
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NovemberWhiskey
Recruit

Posts: 16
Unit: NER-NY-301

« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2018, 05:26:26 PM »

CAPR 100-1 section 11.10 has the details on interoperability channel programming and usage from the CAP perspective.
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CAP9907
Member

Posts: 70
Unit: NER-000

« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2018, 06:00:13 PM »



Have you perhaps run this question up to your Unit/Group/Wing DC? These folks should be the subject matter experts and know what channels are programmed in your Wings radios..

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16 yrs of service
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,881

« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2018, 07:43:27 PM »

Have you perhaps run this question up to your Unit/Group/Wing DC? These folks should be the subject matter experts and know what channels are programmed in your Wings radios..

Hopefully, there's a lot more people that know than those few.
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 707

« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2018, 01:14:21 AM »

Every training exercise or mission I've been to that involved CAP playing with other agencies has involved a representative from each agency getting together and playing "radio go-fish" for about an hour.

"Do you have frequency 123.456 in your radio?"

"Go fish"

Eventually something is found that everyone has or in a few cases, the cops or fire dept has a dispatcher with access to enough radios to serve as a bridge between radio types.
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CAP9907
Member

Posts: 70
Unit: NER-000

« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2018, 01:23:27 AM »

Have you perhaps run this question up to your Unit/Group/Wing DC? These folks should be the subject matter experts and know what channels are programmed in your Wings radios..

Hopefully, there's a lot more people that know than those few.

Well no, not really. Those folks have access to the information and NHQ keeps it FOUO apparently for a reason.
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16 yrs of service
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 707

« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2018, 01:53:13 AM »

Well no, not really. Those folks have access to the information and NHQ keeps it FOUO apparently for a reason.

Everyone with a radio should know what channels are in it, which is different than knowing the specific frequencies. If at a search another agency asks, "hey, we have the statewide SAR channel in our radios, do you?" The CAP person standing there with a radio should know the answer.
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isuhawkeye
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,312

John's web site
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2018, 11:49:08 AM »

This may be helpful to this conversation

https://www.dhs.gov/safecom/field-operations-guides
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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,604

« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2018, 07:41:55 AM »

This may be helpful to this conversation

https://www.dhs.gov/safecom/field-operations-guides

Read through that a bit, it looks like something may be available that could be used on both sides without there being an emergency. Looking at something general use, easily available to both an Army helo and a CAP unit.

Gives me something to work with. Thanks, do appreciate it.
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wingnut55
Seasoned Member

Posts: 355

« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2018, 10:12:36 AM »

The radios that are used to communicate with military aircraft are UHF,VHF, AM, and Sat  Com (PRC119 or URC 200, these radios are all band) they cost over $50,000 for each not including install and antenna. We keep ours between the seat (only space). The CAP TDMs, can have a UHF card installed or purchased with UHF/VHF. So with that said the Guard aircraft can reprogram their radio to a frequency used in SAR, including a CAP frequency, The radios have almost 1000 channels available to be programed to any frequency.


Just takes a little initiative CAP com guys. and good Liaison work with the guard/ reserve units


Bob Kirby
IC3t, Air Ops/ Green flag West
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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,604

« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2018, 12:48:47 PM »

The radios that are used to communicate with military aircraft are UHF,VHF, AM, and Sat  Com (PRC119 or URC 200, these radios are all band) they cost over $50,000 for each not including install and antenna. We keep ours between the seat (only space). The CAP TDMs, can have a UHF card installed or purchased with UHF/VHF. So with that said the Guard aircraft can reprogram their radio to a frequency used in SAR, including a CAP frequency, The radios have almost 1000 channels available to be programed to any frequency.


Just takes a little initiative CAP com guys. and good Liaison work with the guard/ reserve units


Bob Kirby
IC3t, Air Ops/ Green flag West
I'm thinking that it would be easier for the helo to punch in a frequency than it is for CAP to come up with a unique radio. The intent is that we could communicate with them with a little coordination.

What aircraft do you work on , Bob?
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wingnut55
Seasoned Member

Posts: 355

« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2018, 06:36:58 PM »

we have  two 206s, a GA8, and two 182s at GF east
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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,604

« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2018, 07:56:11 AM »

we have  two 206s, a GA8, and two 182s at GF east

Nice. That'll keep you busy.
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Communications with National Guard helos
 


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