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Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 149

« on: July 24, 2018, 12:51:03 PM »

If you fail the color plates when you take your physical, you get:

Medical certificate limitation: “Not valid for night flying or by color signal controls.”

If you then pass the daytime light gun test, you have a totally valid class 3, which is I think all CAP ever wants.

However, if you fail the day test, but then pass the night test, you get:

Medical certificate limitation: “Not valid for flight during daylight hours by color signal controls.”

Well I failed the first one,. passed the second.  So the only restriction is on daytime use of light gun signals.
70-1 makes no mention of color restrictions.  Also, BasicMed doesn't even ASK about color vision (???)
Does this mean I'm OK to be a CAP pilot?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,099

« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2018, 01:03:30 PM »

Your answer is as clear as day on page 42 (screenshot below).



((*snicker*))
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Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 149

« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2018, 01:52:30 PM »

Your answer is as clear as day on page 42 (screenshot below).



((*snicker*))
Well there are only 37 pages to the regulation, but I get your point.  Looks like I'm on my way to Senior Observer instead.
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dwb
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,342

« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2018, 02:27:58 PM »

Can you re-take the daytime light gun test? Or is it one and done?

Thankfully I passed the light gun test with no problem, so all I have on my medical is that I need corrective lenses. It's odd that you can pass it at night but fail in daytime.
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ColonelJack
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,367
Unit: SER-GA-153

« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2018, 03:21:36 PM »

Quote
Well there are only 37 pages to the regulation, but I get your point.  Looks like I'm on my way to Senior Observer instead.

Nothing wrong with being one of those ... I've been one for quite a while now.

Jack
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Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., Civil Air Patrol
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,471

« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2018, 04:18:07 PM »

My understanding is that all elements of the Form 5 must be successfully passed to be a CAP Pilot (CAPR 70-1, 4.1.2.1.2).

Unlike hobby flying, which requires you to just have a license and a medical, CAP is qualifying you as aircrew, not certifying you. So while your certificate may have restrictions, CAP is opting in to say that those restrictions are not operable under CAP standards and pose an operational performance risk and safety risk. CAP flying is mission-based, and that's the reason for the stringency.

I was lucky enough to have had a FALANT in 2006 and received a Letter of Evidence to grandfather me in under the new testing program. I had another one in 2013 at MEPS for my naval flight physical (they wouldn't accept the FAA's administration of the test). I couldn't read those color plates if my life depended on it.
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Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 149

« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2018, 05:07:37 PM »

Can you re-take the daytime light gun test? Or is it one and done?

Thankfully I passed the light gun test with no problem, so all I have on my medical is that I need corrective lenses. It's odd that you can pass it at night but fail in daytime.

Both tests are one time only as color vision does not change over the course of your lifetime.  It does not get better or worse.  I found it interesting that I could conceivably have unrestricted night flying but a condition on flying during the DAY.  But the fact is colors are easier to see at night - I have no problem with VASI lights on a night landing but during the day they are difficult for me to tell apart.

However the same thing that made me color blind gives me above average acuity, depth perception and night vision, so I'm a better observer.

Incidentally - there is nothing about color vision in basic med, and nothing on the form 5 about it either.  If anyone from national is reading this, 70-1 should really say class 3 medical WITHOUT RESTRICTIONS.
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Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 149

« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2018, 05:14:59 PM »

Look at what you have to go through, and keep in mind you have to get written permission from the FAA to even do this.  It takes months.

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sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,201

« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2018, 06:40:00 PM »

^ There's some irony in that chart that it uses red and green text for no and yes. It's a test in itself.

Mike
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,252

« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2018, 09:38:35 PM »

The two AMEs I've used over the past 42 years have used the same little spiral bound color chart books. Must have been printed in the '60s. Ragged and coming apart. It tickles me, in that while yes, I can pass it, I also have it memorized from seeing the same book every time. LOL
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
PHall
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Posts: 6,260

« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2018, 10:59:22 PM »

The two AMEs I've used over the past 42 years have used the same little spiral bound color chart books. Must have been printed in the '60s. Ragged and coming apart. It tickles me, in that while yes, I can pass it, I also have it memorized from seeing the same book every time. LOL

That's why AT&T doesn't use those books any more, people have memorized them. They use a practical test these days.
Hand you a chunk of 25 pair cable and ask you to pull out various pairs, i.e. the red-green, black-blue, red-brown, yellow-slate.
To work in telephone cables, copper or fiber, you have to be able to see 10 colors. (blue, orange, green, brown, slate[grey], white, red, black, yellow and violet)
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,471

« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2018, 11:13:44 PM »

The two AMEs I've used over the past 42 years have used the same little spiral bound color chart books. Must have been printed in the '60s. Ragged and coming apart. It tickles me, in that while yes, I can pass it, I also have it memorized from seeing the same book every time. LOL

That's why AT&T doesn't use those books any more, people have memorized them. They use a practical test these days.
Hand you a chunk of 25 pair cable and ask you to pull out various pairs, i.e. the red-green, black-blue, red-brown, yellow-slate.
To work in telephone cables, copper or fiber, you have to be able to see 10 colors. (blue, orange, green, brown, slate[grey], white, red, black, yellow and violet)

Military color vision testing for people who were already diagnosed as "color blind" or "color deficient" used to be looking as colors of string/yarn and identifying coloring on maps.

What you see in that color plate booklet is no match for what things actually look like in the sky or on a sectional chart.

Now I have very little issue with reading paper charts (to my knowledge at least) or electronic imagery. Lights are fine. But I have a really tough time with fabrics.



I don't see a thing but a bunch of orange and green dots.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,131
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2018, 02:20:31 AM »



So, a few years ago I was doing an evaluation of new cockpit symbology, and I had eight current USAF pilots scheduled to fly in a sim and evaluate the designs (bare eye day full sunlight, a factor of a 10,000 fc sunlight brightness at altitude, mesopic, and full dark adapted night, plus LEP and NVG compatibility test conditions).  As part of my test plan I ran them through the color vision screening plates as a matter of course (being a thorough engineer type, following best practices).


Imagine my surprise when a Major, F-15 Eagle background, current in the Raptor, looked at me uncomfortably and cleared his throat, and then admitted that he'd flunk the test.  Turned out that when his class was screened as young LTs the number sequences were all "known gouge" to the entire class, and he'd "hacked it" all the way through T-37s, T-38s, and the Eagle. The thing that saved him through the training pipeline was that the classic Eagles have P51 green phosphor HUDs and P53 phosphor monochrome head down displays, so you either saw the symbology or not.  The problem in our fighter was blue green color blindness hindered him in discerning PPLI tracks, shared ownship/wingman tracks, etc. especially with LEP donned.


So, I hated to do it but it had to go in the report, and it caused some consternation in ACC (as you can imagine). They later found a second pilot at Langley who was in the exact same boat. We (engineers and flight surgeons) did individual evals and eventually cleared them both.  Great sticks, reportedly, and if a bit embarrassed they were able to accommodate the issue and be safe and effective pilots.


My takeaway as a human factors engineer is that the fit check/practical is the way to go.  While mild color blindness (which is actually common in males) hasn't always been severe enough to be a serious grounding/selection problem in the past (core values aside with these specific pilots), the transition to full color cockpit displays has exposed some significant new impacts.  I think AMEs and pilots with color deficient vision need to have an honest discussion about what equipment they're going to be operating, in what lighting conditions, and with what eyewear (sunglasses).  A color glass cockpit configuration which significantly uses color coded information for pilot situational awareness, combined with dawn/dusk glare (in the eyes, or over the shoulder on the panel), combined with sunglasses which impacts the pilots optical train...  all that may mean he could miss critical information on the display (VASI or not).
.


As with the example I relate, sometimes the right answer isn't some sterile test, but a cockpit eval with the PFR and flight critical symbology (which is color, these days).  I made an input a couple of years ago to update the MIL STDs and make a recommendation to the service flight surgeons. The FAA should reexamine the issue in light of new cockpit displays also. On the other hand, if the vendors are doing their jobs right, they're following HFE design guidance and are not using color alone as a single means of information coding... same for VASI and PAPI indications. Design for color deficient users isn't hard, really - especially when you consider that in some cases (serious G loading during a departure or recovery) all normal humans are susceptible to graying out and loss of color coded information.


Dwight, best of luck to you. Let us know what you and your AME come up with, huh?

Best,
Spam



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