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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO Change
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Author Topic: NCO Change  (Read 1453 times)
imposter87
Newbie

Posts: 4

« on: July 22, 2018, 10:23:01 PM »

I had a question pop up. If a member wanted to switch to an NCO grade, why could they not use State Guard NCO paperwork to fulfill the requirement if the State Guard fell under the Military dept along side a National Guard?

What do you think?
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Capt, ALWG
Current: Sq. CC

Former: Sq. CC, WG ESTO/DPD

Completed: SLS,CLC,IGSC
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,204

« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2018, 10:41:44 PM »

It's not what we think that counts, it's what National thinks. I would ask National directly.
If your wing has a Command Chief Master Sergeant, ask them first.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2018, 10:54:13 PM »

Because they aren't the National Guard.  CAP only recognizes Federal grade.
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 335

« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2018, 11:22:53 PM »

Doesn't look like ALWG or SER has a Command Chief yet.  CAPR 35-5 states in 6.2.1. that "active military, reserve or National Guard".

In the event he held E-4 or above in one of the above components, he can still convert.  I'm not sure if he's trying to get a grade equivalent to his SDF rank that was higher than what he held in the military.  If SDF is his only service he's out of luck. 

If he does have an applicable E-4+, he may be eligible for a higher NCO grade based on his CAP grade, PD level, etc.  I was just told by the National Command Chief that NHQ was interested in doing that again, so there will be a matrix published if they go that route.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2018, 10:15:30 AM »

If they're National Guard, they're still under the master purview of the federal Armed Forces reserve (i.e., DoD; Title 10 USC Section E).

But if they're in a state armed force that is not in conjunction with the DoD (e.g., California State Military reserve), then they will not qualify as a federal Armed Forces member.

You have to provide documentation of one's federal service. The DD Form 214 is controlled at the federal level, not state level.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,194

« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2018, 06:03:48 PM »

Interestingly, I've seen the inquiry come from the other direction.

Occasionally CAP members in California will approach the State Military Reserve folks with "I'm a First Lieutenant in CAP, will that transfer over to the SMR?"


And the answer is pretty much the same: "Not at this time, but let's get you enrolled in the training to make you a CSMR officer."

It's fun watching from both sides.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
COL (CA), CSMR



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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,204

« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2018, 08:27:50 PM »

Interestingly, I've seen the inquiry come from the other direction.

Occasionally CAP members in California will approach the State Military Reserve folks with "I'm a First Lieutenant in CAP, will that transfer over to the SMR?"


And the answer is pretty much the same: "Not at this time, but let's get you enrolled in the training to make you a CSMR officer."

It's fun watching from both sides.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
COL (CA), CSMR

Maybe you answer the OP's question Ned. Does being an NCO in the CSMR count as far as CAP is concerned?
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Falling Hare
Recruit

Posts: 13

« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2018, 09:31:49 PM »

Back in the day (1970-80s) the CAP regulation about NCO rank was quite vague; something about wearing the NCO grade you earned "in the armed forces of the United States".

I knew of at a few state soldiers that, with the complete support and encouragement of the Wing USAF liaison NCO (remember those guys?)
submitted state promotion paperwork to National to be able to wear the equivalent grade in CAP. 

Of course this was not officially entered into your CAP record; you basically became a SMOG, with the approval to wear the grade.  I but never heard that this caused any problems...but I don't think National really cared one way or the other.

If I remember the reasoning of the AF guys it was that they were "National Guard replacements and under the UCMJ."  I didn't even know what state guards were at the time
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MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,903
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2018, 09:44:24 PM »

The State Guard is the reserve of the reserve. They never fall under federal jurisdiction, answer only to the state. Their main mission is to respond to local emergencies. They’re identifiable by wearing their state identity on their uniforms and never anything that says United States.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 10:14:43 PM by MSG Mac » Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,194

« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2018, 11:18:42 PM »

Forgive my short reply - I'm on a bumpy bus in Korea on IACE on my phone.

I am a CP guy, not a Personnel guy so I have no special knowledge about CAP officer and NCO appointments beyond just reading the reg like the rest of us.

But as far as the CSMR or any state militia being called into Federal Service, Article 1, section 8 of the Constitution seems to fairly clearly indicate that Congress could do so in a heartbeat, if they wish.  IIRC from law school, that is the Militia Clause, and likely supersedes any other Fedetal or State law that suggests the contrary.

Very likely a moot point since I would wager that less than 1% of our current Congress has any idea that the clause is there, let alone be inclined to use it.

Also on the list of things I am not is a military historian, but I think Congress called the New York (?) militia into Federal service during the War of 1812 and sent them to invade Canada.  It did not go well.  No federal activations since.
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,663

« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2018, 07:05:13 AM »

Ned,. during September 11 New York Guard units were activated, but I do not recall if they were so by Federal or NY legislature. They were armed in a week, they normally are not, and paired up with National Guard and / or NYPD and sent to guard the subways.


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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 360
Unit: GA

« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2018, 11:23:59 AM »

The answer would be no, a State Defence Force NCO would not be able to become a CAP NCO.

Reason 1: CAPR 35-5 states " Active military, reserve or National Guard". SDF are not any one of these.

Reason 2: The Air Force (And by extension CAP) does not recognize state-level service. i.e. Cadets can stay cadets when they join the national guard as long as they don't do title 10 orders for extended active duty (other then training), CAP members can't wear state awards and decorations, even if they could wear them on the Air National Guard Uniform, and a few other things.

I can probably find a few more reasons if needed but these two should be enough...
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Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)

NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, 17
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
GAWG NCOA 18
shuman14
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 961
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2018, 02:15:29 PM »

Cliff notes for you about the State Guard / State Defense Force / State Military Reserve:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_defense_force


And the State Guard Association of the United States:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Guard_Association_of_the_United_States
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Joseph J. Clune
Major (Promotable), Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO Change
 


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