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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Emergency Services patch
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Author Topic: Emergency Services patch  (Read 2521 times)
Anderson#3
Newbie

Posts: 3
Unit: SWR-OK-086

« on: July 18, 2018, 05:25:45 PM »

I was getting ready to buy my ES patch when I saw that there was two patches, an oval one with a plane and a circle one with a dog. Which one do I get for the ABUs?
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,308

« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2018, 06:29:41 PM »

Neither. The ES patch is not listed on the ABU wear instructions.
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darkmatter
Forum Regular

Posts: 158

« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2018, 06:58:33 PM »

Yet another reason why I still think BDU's are still the best
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,349

« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2018, 08:04:56 PM »

Yet another reason why I still think BDU's are still the best

Your days are numbered! >:D
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darkmatter
Forum Regular

Posts: 158

« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2018, 10:33:31 PM »

Yet another reason why I still think BDU's are still the best

Your days are numbered! >:D

Polos all day very day if I can look some what professional (aka bdus look way more professional compared to the ABUs with black boots)  I'll just stay in the polo with my facial hair. :angel:
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,726

« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2018, 08:43:33 AM »

Just because someone may be more used to ABUs with green boots, it does not make look the ABUs with black boots any less professional. Lets face it, are you sure that if the Air Force decides it will be using black boots tomorrow, do you think that after one or two years anyone will say "that does not look cool?"
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Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,568

« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2018, 11:44:02 AM »

Just because someone may be more used to ABUs with green boots, it does not make look the ABUs with black boots any less professional. Lets face it, are you sure that if the Air Force decides it will be using black boots tomorrow, do you think that after one or two years anyone will say "that does not look cool?"

By that time they'll be on their next uniform...again...

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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,726

« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2018, 11:47:25 AM »

...by that time they will be saying "Black boots are cool... Green boots are not cool..."



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Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
AFDefender
Newbie

Posts: 3
Unit: SWR-TX-087

« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2018, 12:44:19 PM »

Neither. The ES patch is not listed on the ABU wear instructions.

I would respectfully disagree with your assessment.  The ABU memos only address the patches inside the breast pockets. The emergency services patch is not authorized in these positions in the first place.  They do not address proper placement as defined in CAPR 39-1....

"Emergency Services Patch. The CAP Emergency Services Patch as authorized by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges may be sewn to the shirt ˝ inch above the nametape over the right pocket. If the CAP
Command Insignia is worn, the CAP Emergency Services Patch will be sewn ˝ inch above that patch."

There is not a letter, memo, order, or regulation that states or infers that the Emergency Services Patch is not authorized in its proper placement on the CAP USAF-style utility uniform regardless of color.  If there is something official( not hearsay or in my opinion) put out that has not been recieved or personnel have been given direct orders from their leadership not to wear it.

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Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 95

« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2018, 02:23:55 PM »

I would respectfully disagree with your assessment.  The ABU memos only address the patches inside the breast pockets. The emergency services patch is not authorized in these positions in the first place.  They do not address proper placement as defined in CAPR 39-1....

"Emergency Services Patch. The CAP Emergency Services Patch as authorized by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges may be sewn to the shirt ˝ inch above the nametape over the right pocket. If the CAP
Command Insignia is worn, the CAP Emergency Services Patch will be sewn ˝ inch above that patch."

There is not a letter, memo, order, or regulation that states or infers that the Emergency Services Patch is not authorized in its proper placement on the CAP USAF-style utility uniform regardless of color.  If there is something official( not hearsay or in my opinion) put out that has not been recieved or personnel have been given direct orders from their leadership not to wear it

[link=https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAP_Transition_to_ABUs_0138683E8BE29.pdf]CAPM 39-1 ICL 16-04[/link]

Here's a hint to simplify things for you:
IF "item mentioned" ="true" THEN "authorized"
IF "item mentioned" ="false" THEN "not authorized"

Stop trying to infer truths not printed.
 
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,335

« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2018, 02:26:34 PM »

The ABU is a special animal, and there are several significant differences from standard field uniform wear.

Also, there isn't even a regulation-compliant authorization to wear the ABU at all, so referencing
39-1 in a "it doesn't say you can't mode", doesn't fly.
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,308

« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2018, 03:21:33 PM »

However, the wear instructions provide information on every other patch/insignia worn (excluding the ranger tabs). By not providing instructions on how the ES patch would be worn, but providing them for everything else, indicates the ES patch (and ranger tabs) are not authorized on the ABU.
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AFDefender
Newbie

Posts: 3
Unit: SWR-TX-087

« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2018, 08:04:44 PM »

The ABU is a special animal, and there are several significant differences from standard field uniform wear.

Also, there isn't even a regulation-compliant authorization to wear the ABU at all, so referencing
39-1 in a "it doesn't say you can't mode", doesn't fly.

Incorrect the link gunsotsu sent that JOSEPH R. VAZQUEZ Major General, CAP Commander signed is regulation and is the point of my original post.  All regulations are signed from the highest authority from all services when applied to all personnel of those services. Also CAP is modeled after AFI-36-2903 as stated in letter and has been model all the way back to AFI 35-10 if you're old enough. They were very specific when I first started wearing USAF BDU's in 1991 and ABUs in 2007. In response to the "not mentioned not authorized" logic...  Official memos/letters/ FRAGOS/ supplements etc are very specific when adding or removing in reference to existing regulations( 1/2 inch here, aquamarine blue there, 1500 ft AGL here..etc)  They are additions or subtractions mentioned, not inferred or unprinted truths.  If no more red pants it will say no more red pants.  If it mentions new items then the "mentioned authorized" works example "our transition to the ABU" quoted from the 4 May 2016 signed letter (These instructions will be incorporated into the next revision of CAPM 39-1)  The understanding a letter signed by commanding general is as if he is speaking his orders. If in formation if he doesn't mention something, do what he said in the past no longer valid because he didn't mention it again for a temporary situation? My point is that myself and CAP talk isn't regulation or authority.   If your LTC tells you a MAJ no then its no.  If someone tells you something 10 years ago their order stands until they rescind/ or change it clearly and concisely.  Leadership is good followership.  In absence of new instruction the last instructions are still in effect. 
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,335

« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2018, 08:22:08 PM »

The ABU is a special animal, and there are several significant differences from standard field uniform wear.

Also, there isn't even a regulation-compliant authorization to wear the ABU at all, so referencing
39-1 in a "it doesn't say you can't mode", doesn't fly.

Incorrect the link gunsotsu sent that JOSEPH R. VAZQUEZ Major General, CAP Commander signed is regulation and is the point of my original post. 

What is linked by gunsotsu is an ICL.  It was issued by a former CAP National Commander.

This: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/UPDATED_ABU_wear_instruction_24_Oct_BEA8C45C7D2DD.pdf
is the most current ICL, and you will notice it isn't signed by anyone, nor does it indicate who issued it whatsoever,
and the subject does not meet the regulatory criteria for issuance of an ICL in the first place.

Are you familiar with CAP regulations regarding the justification of issuing an ICL?  It's good reading.

With that said, the organizaiton has been acting with the Oct document as the authority, and it explicitly prescribes what
can be worn on the ABU. Absent the prescription, all else is prohibited.

If you are a CAP member, it would be good time spent to familiarize yourself with how CAP works, and not try to view
CAP through a military filter.  From the street they look similar, once in the door yo will find they really aren't.
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AFDefender
Newbie

Posts: 3
Unit: SWR-TX-087

« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2018, 09:37:37 PM »

24 OCT 16 is not an ICL. It is the attachment to the 4 MAY 2016 ICL with changes as shaded in grey with changes having nothing to do with this post or CAP acting on it except those that have The Unit/Organizational Patch and the National Staff Badge or the BDU gortex until JUN 2018(very specific and mentioned) . The new National Commander has not signed any new memo or a new CAPR 39-1 so former is still in effect.

CAPR 1-2 is a good read all 22 pages of it, but I'm not trying to cop an attitude by bringing it up.

CAP and military(esp USAF) regs are so similar its like plagerism.

EXAMPLE CAPR 39-1 "  This manual has been revised in its entirety to more closely reflect the structure and organization of Air
Force Instruction (AFI) 36-2903, implementation of the most recent USAF guidance for USAF-style uniforms"

EXAMPLE CAPP 60-33 "This pamphlet is derived from Air Force Manual (AFMAN) 36-2203, Drill and Ceremonies, Air Force Instruction (AFI) 34-1201, Protocol, AFPAM 34-1202, Guide to Protocol, and for rifle manual of arms, Army Training Circular (TC) 3-21.5 Drill and Ceremonies."

EXAMPLE CAPR 160-1 Since CAP is an integral part of the Air Force family, a program reflecting the foregoing is necessary. CAP Health Service’s overarching program goal is to assist our entire membership to become and/or remain optimally healthy and fit. CAP members should strive to reflect US Air Force fitness and health promotion values.

I've read quite a few of them since I've been in the door.  The biggest notice I've seen is failure to know what's in them, reference them,  adhere to them, and lead cadets to do the same.

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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,598
Unit: Classified

« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2018, 09:49:14 PM »

24 OCT 16 is not an ICL. It is the attachment to the 4 MAY 2016 ICL with changes as shaded in grey with changes having nothing to do with this post or CAP acting on it except those that have The Unit/Organizational Patch and the National Staff Badge or the BDU gortex until JUN 2018(very specific and mentioned) . The new National Commander has not signed any new memo or a new CAPR 39-1 so former is still in effect.

CAPR 1-2 is a good read all 22 pages of it, but I'm not trying to cop an attitude by bringing it up.

CAP and military(esp USAF) regs are so similar its like plagerism.

EXAMPLE CAPR 39-1 "  This manual has been revised in its entirety to more closely reflect the structure and organization of Air
Force Instruction (AFI) 36-2903, implementation of the most recent USAF guidance for USAF-style uniforms"

EXAMPLE CAPP 60-33 "This pamphlet is derived from Air Force Manual (AFMAN) 36-2203, Drill and Ceremonies, Air Force Instruction (AFI) 34-1201, Protocol, AFPAM 34-1202, Guide to Protocol, and for rifle manual of arms, Army Training Circular (TC) 3-21.5 Drill and Ceremonies."

EXAMPLE CAPR 160-1 Since CAP is an integral part of the Air Force family, a program reflecting the foregoing is necessary. CAP Health Service’s overarching program goal is to assist our entire membership to become and/or remain optimally healthy and fit. CAP members should strive to reflect US Air Force fitness and health promotion values.

I've read quite a few of them since I've been in the door.  The biggest notice I've seen is failure to know what's in them, reference them,  adhere to them, and lead cadets to do the same.

Dude, chill save it for the flt exercises.  While CAP and USAF are similiar they are just as equally different.  If the patch isnt mentioned in wear instructions for the ABU it's prohibited.  Just like it's not allowed if it's not in the AFI.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,335

« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2018, 10:25:25 PM »

The new National Commander has not signed any new memo or a new CAPR 39-1 so former is still in effect.
Are you sure about that?  Because supplements and OIs at every other level expire when a Commander is replaced,
have to be re-submitted for approval by the new CC, and are unenforceable until the new version has been properly approved.

I don't know that the regs even speak to that issue directly, but that is certainly SOP for the organisation.

I've read quite a few of them since I've been in the door.  The biggest notice I've seen is failure to know what's in them, reference them,  adhere to them, and lead cadets to do the same.

Agreed.

CAPM 39-1, Page 5-6
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf
"1.1.2.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication
is the sole source
for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as
prescribed within. Variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication
are not authorized for wear with uniforms.

Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards"


The CAP-ABU is not mentioned anywhere in CAPM 39-1.  The only reason members believe it's allowed is
are the May and Oct ICLs.

CAPR 1-2, Page 3:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAPR_12_7_Nov_2016_21418BE1E4A98.pdf
"8.2. Interim Change Letters (ICL). Situations requiring immediate action due to a state of emergency
or an unforeseen circumstance involving the preservation of life or property
may result in an interim
change letter being issued outlining necessary actions. The National Commander is the only commander
authorized to issue ICLs or emergency regulations."


A uniform change, no matter how excited people are to make it, does not rise to the level of "emergency", is
certainly not an "unforeseen circumstance", nor does it involve the risk of "life or property".  So it's not "legal"
(in a CAP parlance) to issue the ICL in the first place, ergo, the uniform itself isn't authorized for CAP members.

You can't wear a SARDOG on a shirt you're not even allowed to wear.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 10:29:01 PM by Eclipse » Logged


TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,568

« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2018, 11:47:44 AM »

So who wants to volunteer to tell everyone they can't wear ABUs?

Anyone? Anyone?! Come on, people! Volunteer organization! I should see hands going up!
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,335

« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2018, 12:13:05 PM »

So who wants to volunteer to tell everyone they can't wear ABUs?

I think we already did...
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Lord of the North
Forum Regular

Posts: 125

« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2018, 02:30:24 PM »

Quote from: Eclipse link[quot=topic=23377.msg419023#msg419023 date=1537842325
Are you sure about that?  Because supplements and OIs at every other level expire when a Commander is replaced,
have to be re-submitted for approval by the new CC, and are unenforceable until the new version has been properly approved.



Citation Please
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 02:34:49 PM by Lord of the North » Logged
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Emergency Services patch
 


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