Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 16, 2018, 06:40:58 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Items not on the encampment packing list.
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2  All Print
Author Topic: Items not on the encampment packing list.  (Read 1993 times)
Picy3
Recruit

Posts: 15
Unit: PCR-WA-015

« on: June 17, 2018, 03:23:19 PM »

This is gonna be pretty simple. I'm going to encampment in 2 weeks and was going over my packing list (to make sure I have all my stuff) when I though "hey, I wonder if there is anything I should bring that is not on the list"

So yeah is there any items anyone here recommends to bring that is not necessarily needed but can make life easier or better at encampment (other then a watch which I was told by my squadron to be extremely important)?
Logged
I am a person.

Master Sergeant and flight Sergeant.

Rocketry badge, SAR GTM3 badge and one year of cap as of april 1~7 (sometime between there), No encampment until July 7.
Cadetter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 223

« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2018, 03:51:59 PM »

Don't bring anything that's not on the packing list, unless you get it approved in advance. It will most likely be taken away as contraband. Also, you may or may not be allowed to keep your watch depending on your encampment rules.
Logged
Wright Brothers Award, 2013
Billy Mitchell Award, 2016
Earhart Award, 2018

Planned: Eaker Award, late 2018 or early 2019; Spaatz Award, summer 2019
1_skinny_boi
Newbie

Posts: 4
Unit: SWR-AR-040

« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2018, 03:57:48 PM »

Don't bring anything that's not on the packing list, unless you get it approved in advance. It will most likely be taken away as contraband. Also, you may or may not be allowed to keep your watch depending on your encampment rules.

I'll second this. This isn't your encampment staff's first rodeo - trust the packing list. If there's an item that's obviously missing, you should contact your chain of command and make certain. Also, most encampments that I have attended don't allow students to wear watches, but this varies by wing.
Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2018, 05:36:27 PM »

Many encampments do not allow students to wear or have a watch so you may want to double-check before bringing one.  And like everyone here as already said, just stick to the list.  I have seen more than my fair share of cadets showing up for a week of encampment packed like they were going on a 12-month expedition.
Logged
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,184

« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2018, 08:56:08 PM »

Many encampments do not allow students to wear or have a watch so you may want to double-check before bringing one.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but cadets are always allowed to keep and wear watches at encampment if they choose.  Since there is no legitimate training value to confiscating watches, it is improper for cadre to do so.  See CAPP 60-70 (Cadet Encampment Guide), para 2-7(d).

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,611

« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2018, 10:11:44 PM »

Many encampments do not allow students to wear or have a watch so you may want to double-check before bringing one.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but cadets are always allowed to keep and wear watches at encampment if they choose.  Since there is no legitimate training value to confiscating watches, it is improper for cadre to do so.  See CAPP 60-70 (Cadet Encampment Guide), para 2-7(d).

+1 - Of the cadet comments on the critiques from the last encampment, one of the recurring ones
was "wanting to know what we will be doing".  Keeping that from the students is an artificial, and unnecessary
stressor.  We're trying to make better cadets, not nervous ones, and these days a lot
of kids have micro-managed schedules.

They are already off caffeine, sleep deprived, disconnected from the tubes, and away from home.
If knowing what time it is, and where they are expected to be relieves that, even a little, then that will make things
easier on everyone, and reduce the "need" to be yelling by the cadre (which shouldn't be happening anyway.

Assuming I have a say in the matter, next year we'll be including a copy of the schedule in with the encampment
handbook at materials issue.

Done.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 10:14:56 PM by Eclipse » Logged


Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,069
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2018, 10:38:47 PM »



I was at the Georgia Wing 2018 encampment in processing this morning. We observed a vast improvement over recent years in terms of efficiency, lack of (negative) stress, and flow of students (NOT "BASICS") just by virtue of two measures:  (1) improved student adherence to bringing the list, just the list, only the list, and nothing but the list, and (2) cadre refraining from the inappropriate screaming and "knife hand - in your face yelling" type of activity (which might be appropriate for basic military training, but not here).  Students moved quickly and smoothly to and through check in, gear inspection, flight assignment and lunch often with parents watching (i.e. transparency) with the Wing CC and I present as observers.

Picy3, and other cadet students, if you bring extra "nice to haves" you will slow all that down and will make life more complex/difficult. Just stick to the plan/checklist as briefed, ok?

V/r
Spam




Logged
68w20
Forum Regular

Posts: 169

« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2018, 10:39:28 PM »

Many encampments do not allow students to wear or have a watch so you may want to double-check before bringing one.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but cadets are always allowed to keep and wear watches at encampment if they choose.  Since there is no legitimate training value to confiscating watches, it is improper for cadre to do so.  See CAPP 60-70 (Cadet Encampment Guide), para 2-7(d).

+1 - Of the cadet comments on the critiques from the last encampment, one of the recurring ones
was "wanting to know what we will be doing".  Keeping that from the students is an artificial, and unnecessary
stressor.  We're trying to make better cadets, not nervous ones, and these days a lot
of kids have micro-managed schedules.

They are already off caffeine, sleep deprived, disconnected from the tubes, and away from home.
If knowing what time it is, and where they are expected to be relieves that, even a little, then that will make things
easier on everyone, and reduce the "need" to be yelling by the cadre (which shouldn't be happening anyway.

Assuming I have a say in the matter, next year we'll be including a copy of the schedule in with the encampment
handbook at materials issue.

Done.

You want the schedule finalized before Day 1?  That's just unreasonable.
Logged
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 306

« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2018, 12:14:04 AM »

Giving students (especially—gasp!—basic students) any more schedule information than a brief rundown every morning at opening formation is more trouble than it’s worth IMO.

- literally all they have to do is what they’re told. It’s a followership and peer leadership course. Right place, right time, right uniform, right gear, right attitude/mindset. None of that is contingent on having yet another piece of paper they don’t need and it’s not like they can control the schedule anyway.  At the student level, just listen.

- as mentioned, encampment schedules are typically fluid. Why give them something that has a high-to-certain chance of changing?

I could go off topic regarding the whole “mercy sakes, don’t yell or call them ‘basics’” thing but I digress.
Logged
OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 391
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2018, 12:32:00 AM »

I could go off topic regarding the whole “mercy sakes, don’t yell or call them ‘basics’” thing but I digress.
Me too. Sad.
Logged
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,547
Unit: Classified

« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2018, 09:48:10 AM »

I could go off topic regarding the whole “mercy sakes, don’t yell or call them ‘basics’” thing but I digress.
Me too. Sad.

Ya'll need to come out of the stoneage.  Yelling is counterproductive and not neccessary..
Logged
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 306

« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2018, 10:21:32 AM »

I could go off topic regarding the whole “mercy sakes, don’t yell or call them ‘basics’” thing but I digress.
Me too. Sad.

Ya'll need to come out of the stoneage.  Yelling is counterproductive and not neccessary..

It’s a tool, not the tool.  It can be used in an age-appropriate manner to induce stress and build mental toughness. It’s not airplane camp where everyone rolls around in a Travolta bubble, it’s supposed to be difficult.

Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2018, 10:27:17 AM »

At our encampment last year "no yelling" was enforced for the first time probably ever.  Many of the older cadet staff grumbled about it but here is how it was explained to them:

1. This is not basic training and you are dealing with young teenagers trying to figure out how to salute, not training young adults to go to war.
2. "If you are yelling as a leader, then you are failing as a leader" was the theme from the Senior staff. 

After the third or fourth day some cadets were still complaining but it was brought up to them that the students were better trained at that point than they usually were at graduation so obviously not yelling was a positive.  We also got rid of the "extra" staff positions that serve zero purpose like "command chief." 


It’s a tool, not the tool.  It can be used in an age-appropriate manner to induce stress and build mental toughness. It’s not airplane camp where everyone rolls around in a Travolta bubble, it’s supposed to be difficult.


Where in CAPP 60-70 does it say that encampment is supposed to be difficult and induce stress and build mental toughness?  I suggest that you review para 1.1 of that document. 

I agree that encampment should not be overly easy but I don't see where yelling does any good.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,611

« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2018, 10:27:27 AM »

- literally all they have to do is what they’re told. It’s a followership and peer leadership course. Right place, right time, right uniform,
right gear, right attitude/mindset. None of that is contingent on having yet another piece of paper they don’t need and it’s not like
they can control the schedule anyway.  At the student level, just listen.

At the 50k level, I would agree, but at the micro it's just not the way most kids operate these days.  I see it as a parent, I see it
in the BSA, and I really see it in CAP, where I've had the most exposure to large-scale herding of cats that I don't know personally.

First, the average kid these days has zero mental downtime - the simply don't know what to do with themselves if they aren't
receiving that regular dopamine hit from their screens.  They aren't tuned for "pondering the wonders of the universe" in a quiet
moment, which means what they start doing is "thinking".  Thinking about being away from home, the bad food, how hot it is,
those stupid showers, etc., etc.

Couple that with the generalized anxiety most kids have these days, many with legit psychological disorders, and the fact that
"discomfort as a character builder" has been largely removed from the lexicon of the average American, and you have the seeds
of a spiral of "don't want to be here anymore", which can then manifest itself in everything from typical "ugh" to "behavioral or emotional
breakdowns" that result in the cadet being dismissed, or worse.

None of that is what the CP, or encampments is about. 

I'll meet you at Greenbuck's and happily debate with you the reason many kids are in the place they are today, but
that won't change the circumstance, nor is it something CAP is capable of fixing even at the Squadron level, let alone
a 1-week activity that is focused in a completely different direction.

Now, let's move on to the staff cadre, both cadet and senior.

At best it's a mix of "BTDT, general idea, & clueless newb", with a sprinkling of people who "know better".

My experience is with the Navy, both in direct contact and from many, many conversations (I wasn't in, only via CAP).
It takes 3-5+ years, plus direct and specific training to becoming an RDC, and not all of them are "good", same goes
generally for DIs, DSs, and MTIs.

They've had personal, successful service experience, direct training on how to mold a teenager into a service member,
and, perhaps most importantly, all went through basic training themselves.

I've seen more then a few "dogpiles" or "swarms", they aren't pretty, but the majority of the time, a raised voice or
3000psi stare with a correct comment is more then enough.

Now, compare that to the average encampment or even unit staffer in CAP.

     Wasn't a cadet, and probably no military experience.

     Inconsistent training or experience in working with adolescents, may not even be a parent.

     Watched plenty of movies.

     No relationship with the cadets in their charge beyond "good intentions" and "just met them".

The same is true of cadet cadre, even moreso, and more challenging because the cadets themselves
are also in training mode, sometimes have their own "issues", and the cadet who most needs their
help is "screwing up my honor flight".

Now, we're here. 

Cadet Timmy made it, it's all he could think about for weeks, mom and dad had an uphill climb
to have him accept the idea of being away from home for a week, but those first couple of days
are going to be on the ragged edge...

In this context people want to artificially raise the stress level or make things harder on the students
in some misguided attempt to "fix them?"

If you have to yell at a volunteer, something is wrong with the situation.

Period.

Logged


Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,611

« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2018, 10:28:38 AM »

At our encampment last year "no yelling" was enforced for the first time probably ever.  Many of the older cadet staff grumbled about it but here is how it was explained to them:

1. This is not basic training and you are dealing with young teenagers trying to figure out how to salute, not training young adults to go to war.
2. "If you are yelling as a leader, then you are failing as a leader" was the theme from the Senior staff. 

After the third or fourth day some cadets were still complaining but it was brought up to them that the students were better trained at that point than they usually were at graduation so obviously not yelling was a positive.  We also got rid of the "extra" staff positions that serve zero purpose like "command chief." 


It’s a tool, not the tool.  It can be used in an age-appropriate manner to induce stress and build mental toughness. It’s not airplane camp where everyone rolls around in a Travolta bubble, it’s supposed to be difficult.


Where in CAPP 60-70 does it say that encampment is supposed to be difficult and induce stress and build mental toughness?  I suggest that you review para 1.1 of that document. 

I agree that encampment should not be overly easy but I don't see where yelling does any good.

+1 - all the way.
Logged


Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,184

« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2018, 12:23:15 PM »

As usual, once we have answered the OP's question, we have wandered off the trail a bit.  And now we are discussing "yelling" at encampment.

This is yet another visit to the Land of Internet Imprecision. (tm)

There is no rule that even suggests that is always  inappropriate to raise one's voice while participating in our terrific CP.

Indeed, the CP has used a military training model for over 70 years.  And raised voices are often found in military training situations, particularly when addressing groups or in noisy situations.

The problem comes up when we start using subjective terms like "yelling" which tend to mean different things to different people.

For some folks, any use of a raised voice means "yelling."  ("I was in front of the PT formation and I needed to yell to be heard by everyone.")

For others, "yelling" has a more limited and specific definition that depends on the facts and circumstances in each incident. ("The flight sergeant yelled at the cadet who was standing beside her in the barracks.")

This is probably one of those "I know it when I see it" situations where almost all experienced CP officers actually observing a situation will agree whether it is appropriate or not.  But those same officers will likely disagree if all they see is a subjective written description of the same incident.

That is why we require experienced and mature CP leaders to be present at all cadet activities.

But as a review, there is nothing in the CPP or elsewhere in CP doctrine that suggests that yelling is always inappropriate at encampment.  While we all certainly agree going all Full Metal Jacket on a troop (Screaming in the ear of young cadet standing by her/his bunk at inspection; using insults, etc.), is always wrong, I suspect we also all agree that encampments are fundamentally different than a squadron meeting, and encampment should not be treated like a week at the library.

Like my high school coach, I often yell encouragement to my troops during a run.  Sometimes I might speak in a loud voice when addressing the flight to emphasize a point on which they can improve.  Loud voices can be one of the tools used by a leader for teambuilding.

The CP -- and especially encampment -- is designed to be a vigorous, challenging environment using military-style leadership techniques implemented in a careful-age appropriate manner by experienced leaders. 

We do a disservice to cadets by not encouraging them to their full potential at encampment, both individually and as a team.

We sure have a lot of threads here on CT concerning military intensity levels, raised voices as a leadership tool, and when things go wrong -- hazing.

Thank you all for helping our cadets to succeed.  You are literally changing the future of this nation.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager
Logged
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,069
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2018, 12:27:28 PM »

Logged
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,547
Unit: Classified

« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2018, 12:51:39 PM »

I could go off topic regarding the whole “mercy sakes, don’t yell or call them ‘basics’” thing but I digress.
Me too. Sad.

Ya'll need to come out of the stoneage.  Yelling is counterproductive and not neccessary..

It’s a tool, not the tool.  It can be used in an age-appropriate manner to induce stress and build mental toughness. It’s not airplane camp where everyone rolls around in a Travolta bubble, it’s supposed to be difficult.

It's dated tool.  I can tell you that since I have been back in the last 6 years I have been far more successful by not yelling and by not having the cadets/cadre yell.  Different age...
Logged
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 306

« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2018, 01:48:12 PM »

I made a new thread to discuss intensity at encampment:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=23306.0
Logged
ol'fido
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,884
Unit: DOTCOTE.

« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2018, 01:28:28 PM »

To the original point about bringing additional items: I don't know about items not on the list, but I do recommend bringing more than the recommended number of underwear, t-shirts, and socks.
Logged
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006
Pages: [1] 2  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Items not on the encampment packing list.
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.589 seconds with 25 queries.
click here to email me