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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Raised encampment PT standards?
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Author Topic: Raised encampment PT standards?  (Read 4542 times)
Eclipse
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« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2018, 10:58:08 AM »

No? C/OIC backed out at the last minute and she had to step in. And if she was napping it’s because she was up until 2am working on SET paperwork and was told to do so by the Commandant.

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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2018, 11:54:51 AM »

I was there. I know what they did. SET busted their butts. I had to shuttle them in the van.

We actually forgot to feed them one day because we didn't realize SET was separated from the group.

No? C/OIC backed out at the last minute and she had to step in. And if she was napping it’s because she was up until 2am working on SET paperwork and was told to do so by the Commandant.



I mentioned that on another post about Encampment. The staff was up way past their bed times.
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I_Am_Twigs
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« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2018, 01:12:04 PM »

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but why is IDWG Encampment doing ground team training?

That's not an Encampment curriculum item.

It was for an Advanced Training Flight, second year cadets that were either cadets that didn't get accepted as cadre or didn't apply for staff. We had two ATFs, one that specialized in Ground Team and one for Color Guard. The GT flight was on a completely different schedule and doing their GT training, and they are all now GTM3 qualified. The Color Guard flight was mostly taught leadership styles and trained to start and lead a color guard. The basic students were only taught from the curriculum.
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Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
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3rd Encampment 2018
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Eclipse
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« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2018, 01:59:59 PM »

As long as it doesn't conflict with the encampment's needs, there's nothing
wrong with doing "other" along side of it, especially if yo have a lot
of people and resources gathered, which is usually the hardest part of any CAP activity.

The issue many wings face with this is having enough adult and cadet staff (cadre)
to do something worthwhile without diluting the encampment.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2018, 03:02:47 PM »

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but why is IDWG Encampment doing ground team training?

That's not an Encampment curriculum item.

It was for an Advanced Training Flight, second year cadets that were either cadets that didn't get accepted as cadre or didn't apply for staff. We had two ATFs, one that specialized in Ground Team and one for Color Guard. The GT flight was on a completely different schedule and doing their GT training, and they are all now GTM3 qualified. The Color Guard flight was mostly taught leadership styles and trained to start and lead a color guard. The basic students were only taught from the curriculum.

Tracking.

During our staff training, we talked about other wings doing "advanced flights." I didn't hear of any doing that. But as Eclipse said, as long as it doesn't interfere with "actual" Encampment, I see know issue.

Adult staffing is always an issue.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2018, 03:21:26 PM »

Shouldn't this discussion of specific happenings have happened offline via private messages?


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xray328
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« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2018, 04:09:32 PM »

Seems to me that keeping things in private messages doesn't address the issue and then issues turn into rumors. 
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PHall
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« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2018, 06:14:33 PM »

So you had a CADET up to 2 AM? And she's supposed to be the person in charge of maintaining standards?
Does anybody else here see a "problem"?  As in required amount of sleep? It's in the regulation and it's not waiverable.
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xray328
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« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2018, 06:22:00 PM »

My understanding of the situation is that there was more work to do than time allowed and to finish up the work of the day and to be prepared for the next day she chose to sacrifice sleep to accomplish her mission. While it’s not in the regulations it’s what she felt she needed to do, again, a personal choice. That being said the commandant quickly rectified the situation as soon as he was aware.

Point here is that there’s plenty of work to do at encampments to justify an SET staff.


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« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 06:26:49 PM by xray328 » Logged
Eclipse
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« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2018, 06:32:07 PM »

My understanding of the situation is that there was more work to do than time allowed and to finish up the work of the day and to be prepared for the next day she chose to sacrifice sleep to accomplish her mission. While it’s not in the regulations it’s what she felt she needed to do, again, a personal choice.  That being said the commandant quickly rectified the situation as soon as he was aware.


A choice a cadet should not be allowed to make.

Good on her for the initiative, and let's not kid ourselves, kids these days are up to all hours with homework and other activities,
but that doesn't matter - the reg is really clear here as to required sleep, and there should be a mandated
lights out for everyone, respectively, on the schedule, including senior members.

One could also ask where the adults were up until 2am when someone realized she was still up and
working.  You can't force a cadet to sleep, but you can insure they are in their racks.

These late-night "staff meetings" and similar used to be the norm years ago in my AOR and we kiboshed
that pretty early-on.  Used to have whole groups of cadets huddled under desks after lights-out planning
the next day's schedule, etc.

The point is emphasized that if it isn't planned and ready for Day 0, it's not happening.  Yes, you have to be flexible,
but this is why the planning sessions in advance of the activity are so important.

"You've had 4 months to plan 4 days of activities, 1/2 of which are locked in because of curriculum mandates,
logistics, or the flight line, what are you 'planning' now?"
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xray328
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« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2018, 06:42:16 PM »

Not every encampment has “racks”, some cadet staff are in private rooms, especially upper level cadet staff.   It’s  also not unusual for two cadet staff members to share a room. 

SET is a little different than most other cadet staff positions as well.  Grading, evaluating, senior staff wanting numbers, etc.  Maybe it just comes down to time management.  In this case she applied for as a team member and was asked to assume the OIC spot.  She kicked butt in the position imho, but of course there’s a learning curve.


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Eclipse
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« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2018, 06:48:10 PM »

No doubt she did.

None of this is about the cadets, it's the seniors involved.
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xray328
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« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2018, 06:59:27 PM »

Oh ok, seemed like PHall was saying otherwise


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PHall
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« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2018, 07:14:37 PM »

Oh ok, seemed like PHall was saying otherwise


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What I am saying is that she should have known that she is required to get the required minimum hours of sleep.
But, the real problem is that the senior leadership did not enforce this rule.
So a minor bad on her for staying up trying to fix a problem, but a major hit on her superiors, cadet and senior, who allowed her to stay up.
The rules are there for everybody, no exceptions!
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xray328
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« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2018, 07:22:08 PM »

I don’t blame senior or cadet staff. She was in a semi private room, was doing what she thought was appropriate to accomplish the mission, the situation was quickly resolved and she learned her mistake. She wasn’t allowed to stay up, they just didn’t know she was. If not for being called out for needing a nap (thanks SkyHornet) it wouldn’t of even been brought up. 

That being said, I’ve also been to encampments where cadet staff are allowed to sleep in the “staff” room because senior staff knew they were up after hours.  I walked in on that and was shocked.  I thought I “caught them sleeping” but it was more like a “why are you bothering” us kinda thing.


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PHall
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« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2018, 08:18:28 PM »

We have a little thing at California Wing encampments called "Seeing the Assistant Adjutant". Basically taking a nap.
Usually by day 3 or 4 of encampment the long days are starting to show on the cadre, both line and support.
So we arrange for the cadre to be able to slip away to get a 1 or 2 hour nap. The results are amazing.
The biggest thing is that they are able to think on their feet again. Which is usually the first thing that goes away when you get over tired.
In the Air Force aircrew world we called this a Work/Rest Plan.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2018, 08:30:17 PM »

We have a little thing at California Wing encampments called "Seeing the Assistant Adjutant". Basically taking a nap.
Usually by day 3 or 4 of encampment the long days are starting to show on the cadre, both line and support.
So we arrange for the cadre to be able to slip away to get a 1 or 2 hour nap. The results are amazing.
The biggest thing is that they are able to think on their feet again. Which is usually the first thing that goes away when you get over tired.
In the Air Force aircrew world we called this a Work/Rest Plan.

Our Cadet Commander instituted mandatory rest periods; however, that doesn't mean you get sleep. It's a period where you are supposed to be off-duty, not able to be used. But that's about as surefire as any power nap can get.

Anyway, nap time isn't considered a mandatory rest cycle in the pamphlet like lights out rest.

Oh ok, seemed like PHall was saying otherwise


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What I am saying is that she should have known that she is required to get the required minimum hours of sleep.
But, the real problem is that the senior leadership did not enforce this rule.
So a minor bad on her for staying up trying to fix a problem, but a major hit on her superiors, cadet and senior, who allowed her to stay up.
The rules are there for everybody, no exceptions!

I don't expect a teenager/cadet to go "No can do, sir. I'm going to bed." Whether they're right or wrong, generally, when you're instructed to 'do-x', you're going to do it.

I would put zero blame on a cadet here.
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arajca
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« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2018, 08:45:09 PM »

I would expect them to mention lights out is in XX minutes and let the senior decide how important it is. I've had them do that with me and I usually said Ok, get it done first thing in the AM, after breakfast.
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PHall
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« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2018, 08:55:54 PM »

I would expect them to mention lights out is in XX minutes and let the senior decide how important it is. I've had them do that with me and I usually said Ok, get it done first thing in the AM, after breakfast.


Exactly!
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xray328
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« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2018, 08:56:21 PM »

I think there’s a a lot of pressure to perform. I know my daughter sees every staff position she’s placed in as a week long interview for the following year. So that being said, a “I’m sorry sir I’m too tired or “I can’t sir, I need my sleep” is probably thought of as exhibiting a certain level of weakness in her mind. 


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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Raised encampment PT standards?
 


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