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I_Am_Twigs
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Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2018, 11:57:44 AM »

So this year's IDWG Encampment was better than I expected, there were a few toss-ups here and there but it all worked out in the end. I barely got the position I wanted, but I still got it so I'm happy. We got most of the encampment NRA Marksman qualified, we got one of our ATFs (Advanced training flight) certified GTM3 quals, and we sent around a hundred cadets home with plenty of stories to tell their squadrons and families. I don't know if other wings do this but this year we also had a Standard & Evaluations team that graded flights and indiviuals on knowledge, fitness, team sports, uniform, bunk tidiness, and marching. With each thing you got right you'd earn a point towards honor flight or honor cadet, personally I really liked the idea (I've never seen it done), it helps to keep it fair and not a repeat of last year (honor flight was unfairly chose, and did not really earn it). So overall I'd give the encampment overall a 8/10.
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Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2018, 12:03:15 PM »

I don't know if other wings do this but this year we also had a Standard & Evaluations team that graded flights and indiviuals on knowledge, fitness, team sports, uniform, bunk tidiness, and marching. With each thing you got right you'd earn a point towards honor flight or honor cadet, personally I really liked the idea (I've never seen it done),

That's a required part of the curriculum now, procedures will vary wing-to-wing, but all encampments are supposed to
be do this.  You should have also had an evaluation of your basic cadet knowledge when you arrived and on the last day of encampment.
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I_Am_Twigs
Member

Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2018, 12:14:21 PM »

I don't know if other wings do this but this year we also had a Standard & Evaluations team that graded flights and indiviuals on knowledge, fitness, team sports, uniform, bunk tidiness, and marching. With each thing you got right you'd earn a point towards honor flight or honor cadet, personally I really liked the idea (I've never seen it done),

That's a required part of the curriculum now, procedures will vary wing-to-wing, but all encampments are supposed to be do this. 

I didn't know about that, oh well, now I do  ;D.

Quote
You should have also had an evaluation of your basic cadet knowledge when you arrived and on the last day of encampment.

As staff? Or just the students? I don't recall one of those tests, but I also wasn't on the stand/eval team.
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Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
2nd Encampment 2017
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Eclipse
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« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2018, 12:20:25 PM »

As staff? Or just the students? I don't recall one of those tests, but I also wasn't on the stand/eval team.

What was your position?

All student cadets are supposed to be given an ICA upon entry and before they leave to judge both the
health of the wing's training on the way in, and the effectiveness of the encampment on the way out.
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Cadet_Assessment_97E8EA097AD07.pdf





Those results are then supposed to be provided to the line staff so they know the areas that cadets need help.

We put everyone through them, from the students through the C/Enc CC, after all, it's a Curry-level of
knowledge, and should be a quick deal for someone appointed to a line role, since that's basically their job.
The results, occasionally, can be somewhat...disappointing...when a Phase III+ cadet can't recite the oath,
do the PT, or perform basic facing movements properly, but that's why we do it - if we find an FS os FC
who can't drill themselves, we don't want them teaching everyone in their flight the wrong way,
afterall, encampment is a training lab for everyone at every post, including the seniors.

Not all encampments put the staff through an ICA, but depending on your role, you certainly should have been aware
of them happening, and if you were on the line, seen the results.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 12:26:15 PM by Eclipse » Logged


xray328
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Posts: 595

« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2018, 12:25:18 PM »

Perhaps this sort of thing goes towards honor cadet selection or some sort of a warrior cadet challenge?


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Eclipse
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« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2018, 12:27:07 PM »

Perhaps this sort of thing goes towards honor cadet selection or some sort of a warrior cadet challenge?

Yes, it can and does, but its primary focus is making better cadets.
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I_Am_Twigs
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Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2018, 12:37:28 PM »

I was a Flight Commander, I don't remember an ICA. When did it get implemented into the curriculum?
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Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
2nd Encampment 2017
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Eclipse
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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2018, 12:45:08 PM »

I was a Flight Commander, I don't remember an ICA. When did it get implemented into the curriculum?

About 4-5 years ago.

You should have experienced it personally as a student at your first encampment, and
have either been directly involved, or received the results, as an FC.

Should anyone scoring at home doubt their "requiredness"...
CAPP 60-70, Page 22
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Encampment_Guide_2017_D02F6386A8BEF.pdf
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 12:59:53 PM by Eclipse » Logged


I_Am_Twigs
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Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2018, 12:59:58 PM »

I was a Flight Commander, I don't remember an ICA. When did it get implemented into the curriculum?

About 4-5 years ago.

You should have experienced it personally as a student at your first encampment, and
you should have either been directly involved, or received the results, as an FC.

Well I didn't see anything like it, or I hadn't noticed it. I guess that's something I'll make sure happens next year.
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Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
2nd Encampment 2017
3rd Encampment 2018
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Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2018, 01:02:25 PM »

Well I didn't see anything like it, or I hadn't noticed it. I guess that's something I'll make sure happens next year.

Certainly you should be aware of it, but frankly if the Encampment leadership isn't aware of it and
has a process to accomplish them and tabulate the scores, a single cadet raising his hand at in-process isn't going to
make it happen.

We have an SET group that is 6-8 cadets plus and it's still a challenge, though we actually do them twice across the both weekends.
so some of it is self-induced.
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I_Am_Twigs
Member

Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2018, 01:11:59 PM »

Well I didn't see anything like it, or I hadn't noticed it. I guess that's something I'll make sure happens next year.

Certainly you should be aware of it, but frankly if the Encampment leadership isn't aware of it and
has a process to accomplish them and tabulate the scores, a single cadet raising his hand at in-process isn't going to
make it happen.

We have an SET group that is 6-8 cadets plus and it's still a challenge, though we actually do them twice across the both weekends.
so some of it is self-induced.

I'm good friends with the higher ranking cadets that would most likely get cadet commander, so I'd take it up to them during or before the planning process, not at in-processing. I'm planning on being PAO or Stand/Eval next year anyway, so if I get Stand/Eval I want to make sure I'm testing people with what they need to be tested with.
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Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
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3rd Encampment 2018
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Eclipse
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« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2018, 01:19:49 PM »

This is a Commandant conversation.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,200

« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2018, 04:49:04 PM »

I don't know if other wings do this but this year we also had a Standard & Evaluations team that graded flights and indiviuals on knowledge, fitness, team sports, uniform, bunk tidiness, and marching. With each thing you got right you'd earn a point towards honor flight or honor cadet, personally I really liked the idea (I've never seen it done),

That's a required part of the curriculum now, procedures will vary wing-to-wing, but all encampments are supposed to
be do this.  You should have also had an evaluation of your basic cadet knowledge when you arrived and on the last day of encampment.

It is a little unclear from the OPs description about exactly what IDWG's SET Team did or did not do, but I wanted to clarify that SET Teams (I know it is redundant, but that's how we say it for some reason) are not permitted for at least the standby inspections, and there is no really compelling reason to use them for other purpose.

Quote from: CAPP 60-70, Cadet Encampment Guide, para 6-2 (d)
d. Inspection Party. Inspection is an inherent function of command. Accordingly, encampments will not
create a permanent inspection party, sometimes called standardization and evaluation teams, for stand-by
inspections.

Ned Lee
Colonel, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,109

« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2018, 05:00:44 PM »

With the mountain of data needed just to comply with the bare minimum requirements of
of the curriculum, who, exactly is supposed to do all that work without SET, and when, exactly,
is it supposed to happen, especially during a weekend encampment which can barely keep up
with the regular time-creep of the curriculum?

There are 5 quizzes, at least two rounds of ICAs, cadet critiques, timing and scoring of
at least 3 TLPs, not to mention team fitness challenges.

You also forgot about this, which is the next paragraph.

"e. Standardized Scoring. Encampments will adopt a single scorecard to be used during each inspection.
This practice provides for a consistent measurement of cadet performance. If the flight is developing into a
team as expected, it will score progressively higher marks on the standardized scorecard. For the purposes
of consistently scoring inspections that impact honor flight awards, encampments may assign that scoring
function to a group-level stan/eval team
, but as mentioned above, stan/eval teams do not conduct standby
inspections.


There is a difference between "stand by" or what we refer to as "mentoring inspections" and the
ones used for honor awards, but no reason to have SET?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 05:05:08 PM by Eclipse » Logged


Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,200

« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2018, 06:04:42 PM »

There is a difference between "stand by" or what we refer to as "mentoring inspections" and the
ones used for honor awards, but no reason to have SET?

Yeah, pretty much no compelling reason to have a SET, but encampment commanders are free to have a group of cadets to help with evaluations and can even call them a SET.  They just can't perform or be part of the inspecting party for the required dormitory inspections descripted in Chapter 6.

I totally agree that someone has to grade quizzes, TLPs, and initial and final assessments, but the average medium to large encampment the existing cadre should be able to handle those tasks fairly easily.  After all, the quizzes are normally graded during the class itself, and corrected to 100% on the spot.  The TLPs are designed to be evaluated by flight and squadron staff, with flight staff and squadron first sergeants as the suggested debriefers.  And the initial and final assessments are normally performed by the flight cadre.  There really isn't much left for a SET to do, but the function is available for commanders to use if they desire.  (as long as they don't do the dorm inspections.)

And although I have a pretty good idea of what a standby dorm inspection is (as performed by flight, squadron, and group cadre), I honestly have no idea what a "mentoring inspection" is.  That does not appear to be a current doctrinal term.  Can you give me some idea?
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xray328
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 595

« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2018, 06:10:06 PM »

My daughter served as SET OIC at two encampments this summer.  She was incredibly busy for someone thatís not needed .  Iíd argue that the only cadet staff member busier and under more stress is the C/CC.


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« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 06:16:21 PM by xray328 » Logged
Eclipse
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Posts: 29,109

« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2018, 06:32:23 PM »

There is a difference between "stand by" or what we refer to as "mentoring inspections" and the
ones used for honor awards, but no reason to have SET?

Yeah, pretty much no compelling reason to have a SET, but encampment commanders are free to have a group of cadets to help with evaluations and can even call them a SET.  They just can't perform or be part of the inspecting party for the required dormitory inspections descripted in Chapter 6.

I totally agree that someone has to grade quizzes, TLPs, and initial and final assessments, but the average medium to large encampment the existing cadre should be able to handle those tasks fairly easily.  After all, the quizzes are normally graded during the class itself, and corrected to 100% on the spot.  The TLPs are designed to be evaluated by flight and squadron staff, with flight staff and squadron first sergeants as the suggested debriefers.  And the initial and final assessments are normally performed by the flight cadre.  There really isn't much left for a SET to do, but the function is available for commanders to use if they desire.  (as long as they don't do the dorm inspections.)

It's disappointing that the understanding of the effort and manpower necessary to execute a compliant
encampment is not in alignment with NHQ's belief of what is necessary.

Beyond that, I'm not going to micro this here.  I'm happy to have the direct conversation with
you or others on the NHQ CP team any time you'd like.  This is far too complex a conversation
for the internet.

And although I have a pretty good idea of what a standby dorm inspection is (as performed by flight, squadron, and group cadre), I honestly have no idea what a "mentoring inspection" is.  That does not appear to be a current doctrinal term.  Can you give me some idea?

These are the "standbys".  We use the terms interchangeably, and stress mentoring the whole activity
because we found that many less-experienced line cadets didn't take to heart that this is an opportunity
to teach and assist a student with issues and set the example for the others in their flights vs. using it
as an excuse to..ahem..."raise the military intensity to an inappropriate level"...alas, the message,
while clearly conveyed, is not always is not always received without errors.

For next year we will remove that from the nomenclature to insure our terminology is doctrinally correct.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,474

« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2018, 10:37:10 AM »

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but why is IDWG Encampment doing ground team training?

That's not an Encampment curriculum item.



My daughter served as SET OIC at two encampments this summer.  She was incredibly busy for someone thatís not needed .  Iíd argue that the only cadet staff member busier and under more stress is the C/CC.

Ehem.... Logistics C/OIC, son

Your daughter was napping at 1300, and we were bringing her team food  :P

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xray328
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 595

« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2018, 10:55:15 AM »

No? C/OIC backed out at the last minute and she had to step in. And if she was napping itís because she was up until 2am working on SET paperwork and was told to do so by the Commandant.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 12:03:52 PM by xray328 » Logged
xray328
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 595

« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2018, 10:57:18 AM »



Not logistics
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 11:59:02 AM by xray328 » Logged
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Raised encampment PT standards?
 


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