Airborne Photographer Requirements

[etodd]

At the end of the AP SQTR Worksheet is a place to enter the "two" actual exercises. Can these be two different targets on one sortie? I cannot find where its required to be separate sorties. Its kind of silly to land, stop the engine and start a new sortie number just to get the two exercises entered. But I've seen it done. Am I missing something in the regs?

[OldGuy]

Absent any specific direction in regs, I'd ask your skills evaluator. If you are the SE, you should be  able to use your discretion and judgment. Just my 2 cents.

[etodd]

Absent any specific direction in regs, I'd ask your skills evaluator. If you are the SE, you should be  able to use your discretion and judgment. Just my 2 cents.

Yep. Thats me, and thats the plan.

[Eclipse]

At the end of the AP SQTR Worksheet is a place to enter the "two" actual exercises. Can these be two different targets on one sortie?

No - it's required they be two separate and distinct sorties.

They be the same mission, but not the same sortie.

Doing an engine stop and taking off again misses several key pieces of a sortie, not
the least of which is the debriefing and processing the photos, something sorely lacking
and many time a full fail during evals.

One of the purposes of two sorties is to get the AP and aircrew reps on the full end-to-end
of missions.  It's not a "waste" it's the point.

CAPR 60-3, Page 25
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R060_003_075A4369FBA8E.pdf

"c. Finally, after completing familiarization and preparatory training, supervised trainees
must complete advanced training and participate satisfactorily in two missions before a CAPF
101 is approved and a member is considered "Qualified." Advanced training covers the
remainder of the tasks required for specialty qualification. On actual missions, it is expected that
these tasks could be accomplished by the trainee's supervisor or other fully trained members if
they became critical. These tasks do not have to be completed in a mission setting though. It is
acceptable for these tasks to be accomplished with similar familiarization and preparatory tasks
during routine unit training or in a formal school like the National Emergency Services
Academy. Prior approval and additional risk mitigation measures will be required by the
mission approval authority in order for these personnel to participate in a mission. Because all
trainees are properly supervised at all times, trainees are allowed to learn these "on the job."
These two "missions" do not have to be on different mission numbers, be AFAMs, or be
completed after all other advanced training is complete, but personnel must have completed all
familiarization and preparatory training in order to receive credit for these sorties. These sorties
must be complete sorties and/or operating periods where the member participates in all aspects of
their assigned mission specialty. It is possible to participate in more than one specialty on a
given mission or day. "

This is definitely  in the top 5 of the "qualification DEE-NIED top 10".
An ESO in the approval chain looks up the mission and see only one sortie for two sign-offs.
That's also an invitation for some refresher training for the SET.

[etodd]

Thanks for the citation I missed.  Its the Regs ... so be it. 

I could argue that after the flight I would still be debriefing the AP trainee on each target separately, which would be a given. And they would be uploading each target's images separately naturally.

Its the Regs though ... and its how we will do it. Stop the plane, come inside and complete the assigned sortie. Then go back out and do another target, from scratch.

[Fubar]

Don't forget, SET stands for Skills Elevator Trainer, completing the entire sortie process allows for the trainee to be fully evaluated and be provided areas for improvement on the next sortie. You can't do that if you combine both sorties into one.

[SarDragon]

Don't forget, SET stands for Skills Elevator Evaluator Trainer, completing the entire sortie process allows for the trainee to be fully evaluated and be provided areas for improvement on the next sortie. You can't do that if you combine both sorties into one.

FTFY!

[Fubar]

FTFY!

Ack! Stupid auto correct. Thanks for the assist!

Although being an elevator trainer sounds kinda fun too.

[SarDragon]

FTFY!

Ack! Stupid auto correct. Thanks for the assist!

Although being an elevator trainer sounds kinda fun too.

It, like aviation, has its ups and downs. 

[Spam]

FTFY!

Ack! Stupid auto correct. Thanks for the assist!

Although being an elevator trainer sounds kinda fun too.

It, like aviation, has its ups and downs. 

Owwww, Sir. That one really gave me a lift when I needed one; you really pushed my buttons with that.

BTW, I'd love to find an opening for such a job, before it quickly closes.

Cheers
Spam

[Live2Learn]

Don't forget, SET stands for Skills Elevator Trainer, completing the entire sortie process allows for the trainee to be fully evaluated and be provided areas for improvement on the next sortie. You can't do that if you combine both sorties into one.

I believe the thread is trapped... TRAPPED on an Elevator. 

[SarDragon]

St00pid!

[apguy]

I could argue that after the flight I would still be debriefing the AP trainee on each target separately, which would be a given. And they would be uploading each target's images separately naturally.

Its the Regs though ... and its how we will do it. Stop the plane, come inside and complete the assigned sortie. Then go back out and do another target, from scratch.

Sigh...

Coming inside is not required.  You can debrief / brief in the plane with or without the engine shut down (I recommend saving hobbs time, but your pilot's call).  Once you debrief it, then brief the next sortie, you have been through all the steps and they are two distinct sortie cycles.  Uploading pictures is not a sortie step, it is post sortie work.  Remember that you only get evaluated once...you do a task and it's good the first time, then you're good.  I, as the SET, do not need to see you do another one, I don't evaluate you again on the second sortie.  All I have to see in the second sortie is the actual sortie plus anything that needs to be repeated at a higher standard.

Now, I don't recommend it - you miss the opportunity to get feedback and to improve on your previous performance.  That's practice and it makes you better. 

Argue what you like, but out and back flights as two sorties are done all the time and they are usually done in order to be efficient with our training funds.

Doing an engine stop and taking off again misses several key pieces of a sortie, not the least of which is the debriefing and processing the photos, something sorely lacking and many time a full fail during evals.

But you agree they ARE two distinct sorties. 

[Eclipse]

Doing an engine stop and taking off again misses several key pieces of a sortie, not the least of which is the debriefing and processing the photos, something sorely lacking and many time a full fail during evals.

But you agree they ARE two distinct sorties.

Yes.

[etodd]

We have a nice airport restaurant just 15 minutes away where you can park the plane literally 50 feet from the door. Its great for missions like this. Halfway between is a steam power plant and also nearby a hydro plant. First sortie shoots the power plant. Look at the files and evaluate them over wings or a burger. With laptop in tow could even upload if desired while eating dessert.

See what could be done better and plan for the hydro plant on the return sortie.

Make these things fun for the Mission crew. Nourishment and hydration is important between sorties.

[Hawk200]

We have a nice airport restaurant just 15 minutes away where you can park the plane literally 50 feet from the door. Its great for missions like this. Halfway between is a steam power plant and also nearby a hydro plant. First sortie shoots the power plant. Look at the files and evaluate them over wings or a burger. With laptop in tow could even upload if desired while eating dessert.

See what could be done better and plan for the hydro plant on the return sortie.

Make these things fun for the Mission crew. Nourishment and hydration is important between sorties.

Fun, maybe. To me, it seems eminently practical. I've been on a few SAREXs where it seemed like food, and a break from the grind for a time weren't really factored in. Yeah, we have missions, but the people need fuel and maintenance just like the rest of our equipment. The essentials of life don't stop because you're in a uniform, and on a mission.

[PHall]

We have a nice airport restaurant just 15 minutes away where you can park the plane literally 50 feet from the door. Its great for missions like this. Halfway between is a steam power plant and also nearby a hydro plant. First sortie shoots the power plant. Look at the files and evaluate them over wings or a burger. With laptop in tow could even upload if desired while eating dessert.

See what could be done better and plan for the hydro plant on the return sortie.

Make these things fun for the Mission crew. Nourishment and hydration is important between sorties.

Fun, maybe. To me, it seems eminently practical. I've been on a few SAREXs where it seemed like food, and a break from the grind for a time weren't really factored in. Yeah, we have missions, but the people need fuel and maintenance just like the rest of our equipment. The essentials of life don't stop because you're in a uniform, and on a mission.

Well, the Crew Duty Time clock doesn't stop running just because you want a burger. And running out of Crew Duty Day when you're off site will really not make you popular with Air Ops and the IC.

[etodd]

We have a nice airport restaurant just 15 minutes away where you can park the plane literally 50 feet from the door. Its great for missions like this. Halfway between is a steam power plant and also nearby a hydro plant. First sortie shoots the power plant. Look at the files and evaluate them over wings or a burger. With laptop in tow could even upload if desired while eating dessert.

See what could be done better and plan for the hydro plant on the return sortie.

Make these things fun for the Mission crew. Nourishment and hydration is important between sorties.

Fun, maybe. To me, it seems eminently practical. I've been on a few SAREXs where it seemed like food, and a break from the grind for a time weren't really factored in. Yeah, we have missions, but the people need fuel and maintenance just like the rest of our equipment. The essentials of life don't stop because you're in a uniform, and on a mission.

Well, the Crew Duty Time clock doesn't stop running just because you want a burger. And running out of Crew Duty Day when you're off site will really not make you popular with Air Ops and the IC.

Exactly.  Don't try something like this at a SAREX. I wouldn't suggest it.

This is the kind of training we do "inter-squadron". On a lazy Saturday when there is no rush, no "Air Ops or IC".

Funny how folks always assume a SAREX or Wing training event.  Don't wait months for the next SAREX.  Think local. Get it done. (Assuming you have qualified people in your Squadron of course. Some don't.)

[beachdoc]

This is so wrong on a number of levels.  First is crew rest.  A commander's responsibility is to take care of their subordinates.  That includes ensuring breaks for meals.  No one is going to run out of a duty period for taking an hour or less for a meal.

This weekend, North Carolina Wing had a semi-annual SAREX.  My crew was tasked with an AP mission of photographing 8 targets.  We accomplished that mission in 1.5 hours and landed at an airport and ate lunch.  We then flew a second mission photographing another 8 targets and returned to base.

Two sorties.  Easy.

Flying low level in the heat of the South requires hydration and rest breaks.  Simple.

Don't see why that cannot be accomplished during a SAREX with no muss or fuss..

[Eclipse]

This is so wrong on a number of levels.  First is crew rest.  A commander's responsibility is to take care of their subordinates.  That includes ensuring breaks for meals.  No one is going to run out of a duty period for taking an hour or less for a meal.

Really?  Even that guy who worked all day and/or flew a plane in from "hell's dark nowhere" to be used on the mission?

Something which is regulalry noted during missions and evaluations is CAP personnel's general lack of urgency when
prosecuting missions, this goes triple during "training", because "What's the big deal man?  We'll move faster when the
'big one' hits..." except that people don't, because you fight like you train.

Meals, bio breaks, rest periods, etc., are supposed to be planned as part of the mission evolution, and for the most part
completed >after< the mission is done.  You're there for a reason, not a social hour.

It's one thing to dedicate an entire day to a couple of sorties, knowing walking in that you are going to
"wander around stuck in the corners and waste your day discussing the finer points of the stuff
you're not supposed to do anymore but keep doing because you know better..." whatever, it's your
life dripping through your fingers, but it's a whole different thing in a mission environment, including
SAREx's, where often time is spent around the coffee machine, then in the air.

I've been involved in far too many missions, both real and training, where crews wasted hours
"discussing", or went to lunch without debriefing (thus breaking the rest of the day's evolving scenario),
busted duty days because they have to update their iPad and/or combinations of the above.

There is also the non-trivial issue of booking an airplane you don't own for an entire day of
bumming around.  Most sorties, especially training, should last about an hour, more then that
raises questions about effectiveness.  While that plane is parked in the secret spot between
the buildings, someone else could have been doing o-rides, flying their own training, or other related
tasks.