Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 17, 2018, 07:49:42 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Blue Beret and ABUs
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All Print
Author Topic: Blue Beret and ABUs  (Read 4161 times)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,614

« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2018, 02:09:31 PM »

Guys, this is a measuring contest over aircraft parking...

Actually, car parking, just sayin'...
Logged


abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,547
Unit: Classified

« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2018, 02:21:57 PM »

be aware that there are many berets out there watching you and your actions.

Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit creepy there will be a hat watching his every move?



"That's just funny right there, I don't care who you are."


“Berets” are head coverings

True; beret is also a term used to describe those who have earned or wear a beret. This is not unique to CAP or NBB.

Quote
And, when did wearers of said head coverings get appointed to “...watch[ing] you and your actions?”

It is the responsibility of every CAP member to enforce the standards of the organization, which requires keeping a watchful eye. NCSA participants are not relieved of this duty.

Quote
And, what do they plan to do if they “...will not tolerate those who bring discredit...?”

Both cadets and seniors have had activity credit revoked and their beret and St Albans pin taken away both at the activity and after it.

Quote
They attended an activity and were given permission to wear a hat. They weren’t appointed to some mystical order of Illuminati and empowered to protect “the sacred hat.”

No one is protecting the hat. As we teach cadets and seniors who attend; the person makes the hat, the hat does not make the person.

Quote
Geez. Cult much?

Geez. Jealous much?

As someone who wore a beret for 12 years the cult mentality of NBB is comical.  Almost as comical as everyone who thinks CAP is the alpha and omega of the SAR world.  This is akin to the Hawk psuedo "rangers" and many other things. 

You really want to earn/wear a beret join the military and serve in any number of the fields it's awarded to after a significant amount of time... 
Logged
MHC5096
Forum Regular

Posts: 163
Unit: NY-388

« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2018, 03:18:13 PM »

Or just enlist in the Army and make it through basic training.  ;)
Logged
M. H. Crary
Lt Col, CAP (1983-Present)
BA-VIV/ADSO-HR/FSO-PV, USCG Auxiliary (2011-Present)
MSgt, USAF Ret. (1995-2011)
QM2, USN (1989-1995)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,614

« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2018, 03:28:31 PM »

Or go to mime school...

Logged


SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,342
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2018, 03:35:43 PM »

I think the practice of calling NBB graduates "Berets" derives from a certain military group founded in 1952. The United States Army Special Forces are colloquially known as the Green Berets due to their distinctive service headgear. I acknowledge the difference between the two organizations, so let's stay off that path.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2018, 04:20:36 PM »

When I was in USAF tech school many moons ago there was a drill team made up of students and they wore red berets.  The group was often called "berets" as well.

Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free. 
Logged
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,248

« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2018, 05:07:15 PM »

When I was in USAF tech school many moons ago there was a drill team made up of students and they wore red berets.  The group was often called "berets" as well.

Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.
It pretty much is that. National experimented with removing the beret and the activity almost closed due to lack of interest. Tells me the prime motivation is the funny hat, not the training, as the only purported change was no beret at or after activity. Despite what the NBB folks will tell you.
Logged
68w20
Forum Regular

Posts: 169

« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2018, 01:04:02 PM »

I'm legitimately confused by the last couple posts, and I'm hoping that you can both clarify for me.


Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.

Who is creating the "scheme" in this sentence?  Is it NHQ?  Is it the EAA?  My understanding is that CAP provides assistance to EAA in running their air show each year.  Airventure requires thousands of volunteers (5,000 in 2017) providing a ridiculous amount of work in order to function.  The end result is a fantastic air show that draws in hundreds of thousands of visitors (nearly 600,000 in 2017).  Scheme seems to indicate that someone is taking advantage of someone else.  It seems to me that that isn't the case, given that literally thousands of people happily give their time, talents, and treasure to make the airshow a success each year.


It pretty much is that. National experimented with removing the beret and the activity almost closed due to lack of interest. Tells me the prime motivation is the funny hat, not the training, as the only purported change was no beret at or after activity. Despite what the NBB folks will tell you.

You're right.  They took away the hat in the early 90s, and there was a significant drop in personnel attending the event.  The result of this was that the few that did attend were slammed with the taskings required of CAP during the event.  National made the decision to again offer the beret as a form of motivation.  The result of this action was that we again had large numbers of CAP personnel in attendance, and CAP has continued to provide outstanding volunteer service to EAA for the last couple decades since.  It seems silly to me that the hat had that great of an effect on attendance, but it did. 

Each year, we send a couple hundred people to Oshkosh to provide the EAA with support.  I've attended 4 times; twice as a Cadet, and twice as a Senior Member.  Each time, EAA makes it abundantly clear to us that we are a key component of their volunteer work force.  Each year, CAP interacts with hundreds of thousands of people through Airventure.  This happens as a result of hard work from local CAP personnel conducting SAR support during the event, recruiting booths, as well as people from all over the country wearing fuzzy, blue hats marshalling planes and looking for overdue aircraft.

My experience with Cadets attending NBB has been overwhelmingly positive.  I understand that some participants out there give the rest of us a bad name.  As a Squadron Commander, I feel that it's incumbent upon me to mentor and guide our Cadets into being outstanding leaders, citizens, and people.  Part of that may involve uncomfortable conversations regarding the importance (or lack thereof) of certain pieces of headgear. 

The cost-benefit relationship seems pretty clear to me on this.  CAP provides help to a great organization in a multinational event that draws in hundreds of thousands of visitors, CAP members get a really cool experience (and a fuzzy hat), and some of those members end up using those skills when they return to their Squadrons (I've used MRO and UDF numerous times at the local level, both of which I achieved during NBB). 

The trade-off is that sometimes we have to talk with Cadets about how they should act right.  Funnily enough, I feel like that's part of what we're supposed to be doing anyway.  Yes, I'm certain I read that somewhere once. 
Logged
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,636

« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2018, 01:17:57 PM »

When I was in USAF tech school many moons ago there was a drill team made up of students and they wore red berets.  The group was often called "berets" as well.

Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.
It pretty much is that. National experimented with removing the beret and the activity almost closed due to lack of interest. Tells me the prime motivation is the funny hat, not the training, as the only purported change was no beret at or after activity. Despite what the NBB folks will tell you.
Really guys?   You guys just not figuring that out?

Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,614

« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2018, 01:44:04 PM »

Each time, EAA makes it abundantly clear to us that we are a key component of their volunteer work force. 

Yet despite this rhetoric, CAP is essentially absent from any mention on the main website, or as a "partner", and in the most recent
comprehensive documentary I've seen (which admittedly is somewhat old at this point), not mentioned or seen, anywhere.

I have no doubt that the EAA appreciates the assistance, as it would with any group that showed up willing to
work for free while hundreds of vendors and manufacturers crank their year, but like a lot of other CAP activities,
my suspicion on this has always been that CAP is more excited about their being a big help then the EAA.

As an HAA / NCSA, in and of itself it has value, especially to cadets, but like HMRS, there needs to be perspective
about a participant's place in the CAP universe, and seriously, if you have to give people a hat to show up,
you've answered the question for everyone else.
Logged


kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2018, 04:30:41 PM »

I'm legitimately confused by the last couple posts, and I'm hoping that you can both clarify for me.


Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.

Who is creating the "scheme" in this sentence?  Is it NHQ?  Is it the EAA?  My understanding is that CAP provides assistance to EAA in running their air show each year.  Airventure requires thousands of volunteers (5,000 in 2017) providing a ridiculous amount of work in order to function.  The end result is a fantastic air show that draws in hundreds of thousands of visitors (nearly 600,000 in 2017).  Scheme seems to indicate that someone is taking advantage of someone else.  It seems to me that that isn't the case, given that literally thousands of people happily give their time, talents, and treasure to make the airshow a success each year.

I have no issue with going out and helping at an air show, but I don't see the connection between marshaling aircraft, trash duty, etc. and a fancy hat and oath.  The very fact that the NCSA is called "Blue Beret" would certainly imply it is all about the hat.  Scheme is probably the correct word since as was stated elsewhere, participation dropped when the beret went away.  My comments have zero to do with the air show and are not meant to demean anyone as I know that a lot of work goes into this from a CAP standpoint.  I am simply questioning the reason to award a distinctive uniform item and having the air of super importance to those that wear it and recite the special oath.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over a cadet (or SM) getting a beret or not but I would like to know what specialized training these people receive that would warrant any special headgear.
Logged
Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,241
Unit: Worry

« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2018, 04:39:14 PM »

When I was in USAF tech school many moons ago there was a drill team made up of students and they wore red berets.  The group was often called "berets" as well.

Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.
It pretty much is that. National experimented with removing the beret and the activity almost closed due to lack of interest. Tells me the prime motivation is the funny hat, not the training, as the only purported change was no beret at or after activity. Despite what the NBB folks will tell you.
Really guys?   You guys just not figuring that out?

These are the same people that will be shocked at the drop in membership in CAP if they manage to take uniforms away.
Logged
Offutteer
Forum Regular

Posts: 144

« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2018, 04:42:56 PM »

When they got rid of the beret, they also required cadets to get the smurf suit, rather than use their BDUs.  That also had something to do with the drop in attendance.  No beret AND you had to purchase and then WEAR that ridiculous "uniform"?  Ya, no thanks.
Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2018, 04:52:42 PM »

When I was in USAF tech school many moons ago there was a drill team made up of students and they wore red berets.  The group was often called "berets" as well.

Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.
It pretty much is that. National experimented with removing the beret and the activity almost closed due to lack of interest. Tells me the prime motivation is the funny hat, not the training, as the only purported change was no beret at or after activity. Despite what the NBB folks will tell you.
Really guys?   You guys just not figuring that out?

I figured this out about 5 minutes after I first heard about the program. 
Logged
68w20
Forum Regular

Posts: 169

« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2018, 04:54:13 PM »

Each time, EAA makes it abundantly clear to us that we are a key component of their volunteer work force. 

Yet despite this rhetoric, CAP is essentially absent from any mention on the main website, or as a "partner", and in the most recent
comprehensive documentary I've seen (which admittedly is somewhat old at this point), not mentioned or seen, anywhere.

I have no doubt that the EAA appreciates the assistance, as it would with any group that showed up willing to
work for free while hundreds of vendors and manufacturers crank their year, but like a lot of other CAP activities,
my suspicion on this has always been that CAP is more excited about their being a big help then the EAA.

As an HAA / NCSA, in and of itself it has value, especially to cadets, but like HMRS, there needs to be perspective
about a participant's place in the CAP universe, and seriously, if you have to give people a hat to show up,
you've answered the question for everyone else.

CAP not getting enough out of the deal is a legitimate point, and not being mentioned on key marketing materials is a worthy concern.  What then is the solution?  Remove CAP from the event entirely? 

I'm legitimately confused by the last couple posts, and I'm hoping that you can both clarify for me.


Personally I don't get the whole Blue Beret thing.  It just sounds like a great scheme to get people to pay to come and work your air show for free.

Who is creating the "scheme" in this sentence?  Is it NHQ?  Is it the EAA?  My understanding is that CAP provides assistance to EAA in running their air show each year.  Airventure requires thousands of volunteers (5,000 in 2017) providing a ridiculous amount of work in order to function.  The end result is a fantastic air show that draws in hundreds of thousands of visitors (nearly 600,000 in 2017).  Scheme seems to indicate that someone is taking advantage of someone else.  It seems to me that that isn't the case, given that literally thousands of people happily give their time, talents, and treasure to make the airshow a success each year.

I have no issue with going out and helping at an air show, but I don't see the connection between marshaling aircraft, trash duty, etc. and a fancy hat and oath.  The very fact that the NCSA is called "Blue Beret" would certainly imply it is all about the hat.  Scheme is probably the correct word since as was stated elsewhere, participation dropped when the beret went away.  My comments have zero to do with the air show and are not meant to demean anyone as I know that a lot of work goes into this from a CAP standpoint.  I am simply questioning the reason to award a distinctive uniform item and having the air of super importance to those that wear it and recite the special oath.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over a cadet (or SM) getting a beret or not but I would like to know what specialized training these people receive that would warrant any special headgear.

If you're looking for specific, quantifiable criteria, then I guess you're looking to hear that participants are (generally) qualified as UDF/FLM/MRO, and then use those specialties during the airshow.  We've set the precedent in our organization (CAPM39-1 6.2.5) that we'll allow the wear of berets when members meet certain criteria (in practice, generally associated with some kind of ES rating).  With the exception of anecdotal "my cousin's best friend once met a "Beret" and they said they were basically CAP's special forces" stories, I fail to see how this is any different.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,614

« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2018, 05:08:53 PM »

Each time, EAA makes it abundantly clear to us that we are a key component of their volunteer work force. 

Yet despite this rhetoric, CAP is essentially absent from any mention on the main website, or as a "partner", and in the most recent
comprehensive documentary I've seen (which admittedly is somewhat old at this point), not mentioned or seen, anywhere.

I have no doubt that the EAA appreciates the assistance, as it would with any group that showed up willing to
work for free while hundreds of vendors and manufacturers crank their year, but like a lot of other CAP activities,
my suspicion on this has always been that CAP is more excited about their being a big help then the EAA.

As an HAA / NCSA, in and of itself it has value, especially to cadets, but like HMRS, there needs to be perspective
about a participant's place in the CAP universe, and seriously, if you have to give people a hat to show up,
you've answered the question for everyone else.

CAP not getting enough out of the deal is a legitimate point, and not being mentioned on key marketing materials is a worthy concern.  What then is the solution?  Remove CAP from the event entirely? 

That should certainly be on the table, as it should always be with every activity and mission CAP
participate in, or at the least stop marketing the activity as "special" or "elite", and or
that CAP is some key partner.  Asking for a little press in return for hundred of hours of volunteer effort
is not unreasonable for a "partner".

The likely issue is that the EAA is made up of members of the GA community who know CAP for all that it is and isn't.
Plenty of members are in the EAA, but like the ARC, it's a well-funded machine that doesn't need CAP, per se, for anything.

I know there are plenty of places around the country where the EAA and CAP work well together and partner for
various activities, however my personal experience has been that they could take or leave CAP being around
because it's a non-factor to them.

It would be interesting to know if CAP pays rent for its space at the show.  Might not mean much in the grand scheme,
but a true partner in the way that Airventure is sold, should be getting comped on the space, at the very least.
Logged


kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2018, 06:47:07 PM »


If you're looking for specific, quantifiable criteria, then I guess you're looking to hear that participants are (generally) qualified as UDF/FLM/MRO, and then use those specialties during the airshow.  We've set the precedent in our organization (CAPM39-1 6.2.5) that we'll allow the wear of berets when members meet certain criteria (in practice, generally associated with some kind of ES rating).  With the exception of anecdotal "my cousin's best friend once met a "Beret" and they said they were basically CAP's special forces" stories, I fail to see how this is any different.

That really isn't specialized training to me.  I'm talking about training only available at that event.  And again, what does a beret and an oath have to do with UDF/FLM/MRO qualifications?  Distinctive uniform items really should only be used to show that someone has a specialized skill that few others have.  I personally have all of these ES qualifications (and more) but I don't see the real need for it.  I'm not against special uniform items, I would just like to see that they really symbolize something.  I'm just not seeing that with the berets.
Logged
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,165

« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2018, 06:55:40 PM »

A little side note to all the EAA comments. This is great for Cadets!

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/activities/cadet-flying/cap-cadets--young-eagles/
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 110

« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2018, 08:16:31 PM »


If you're looking for specific, quantifiable criteria, then I guess you're looking to hear that participants are (generally) qualified as UDF/FLM/MRO, and then use those specialties during the airshow.  We've set the precedent in our organization (CAPM39-1 6.2.5) that we'll allow the wear of berets when members meet certain criteria (in practice, generally associated with some kind of ES rating).  With the exception of anecdotal "my cousin's best friend once met a "Beret" and they said they were basically CAP's special forces" stories, I fail to see how this is any different.

That really isn't specialized training to me.  I'm talking about training only available at that event.  And again, what does a beret and an oath have to do with UDF/FLM/MRO qualifications?  Distinctive uniform items really should only be used to show that someone has a specialized skill that few others have.  I personally have all of these ES qualifications (and more) but I don't see the real need for it.  I'm not against special uniform items, I would just like to see that they really symbolize something.  I'm just not seeing that with the berets.

Fair point, but I'll maybe add a counter point. Although FLM/MRO/UDF isn't "specialized training" in it of itself and all of CAP can get that training elsewhere, what is quite different is the sheer volume of information, complexity and understanding of the material. I think back to NBB 05 and 06 and can remember several times where we'd have between 6 and upwards of 9 to 10 ELT's going off on a field packed with aircraft, hangars, walls, etc. concurrently. Knowing your stuff is essential, and you'd be hard pressed to get better hands on experience than in a saturated environment like that. Do I think it's CAP-SOC or something? No, hardly, and I think you'd be hard pressed to see anyone who's actually gone ever seriously call it something that ridiculous.

Did I come for the hat? Ehh... I'm embarrassed to say yes but I was also 15/16 at the time and had a lot to learn, but once I got there I learned what the activity was really about I found new meaning in that silly hat. Call it kool-aid, whatever. Sure it's a hat, but I can't think of a time where I met another beret (and yes, it's a colloquialism for someone who's attended NBB, geez guys why all the hate and calling out every little thing. It's the internet not life/death) outside of the activity where we didn't become close friends and bond over our shared experiences even if it was years separated. Whether I like it or not, that silly french hat doesn't stand for a special set of skills as much as it stands for the guys and gals next to you and sharing in accomplishing a mission with a unique complexity and scope. If you read the oath for Berets, it's about the mission and those next to you, and that's really what NBB is about.

Now, I've not been back since 06, and I know things have somewhat changed in 12 years, but I'd bet they haven't changed TOO much.

Logged
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.

Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,637

« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2018, 09:09:44 PM »

Irrespective of the hat or value debate, I would like to point out that Wisconsin Wing partners with AFRCC every year to stand up a 24/7 precautionary SAR mission for the duration of Airventure, to much less internal fanfare than NBB. CAP resources stage at several of the overflow fields and provide state-wide SAR coverage in the event of an overdue aircraft. Basically, NBB’s ES mission except it covers the other 99.9% of the state.

If I were to change where I spend my CAP vacation days, that’s where I would put them. Good people, good mission.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Blue Beret and ABUs
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.061 seconds with 25 queries.