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Starbird
Member

Posts: 70
Unit: NER-NH-056

« on: May 14, 2018, 10:07:49 AM »

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-crash-deliberate-panel-of-aviation-experts/

Saw this on the news this morning.  Figured it might interest some of us on here.
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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 625

« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2018, 11:50:30 AM »

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-crash-deliberate-panel-of-aviation-experts/

Saw this on the news this morning.  Figured it might interest some of us on here.

So far this report of a suicidal pilot is circumstantial and speculative.  Whether additional support for the theory will surface that offers greater support remains to be seen.

Links within the CBS website that report the recent court martial of Lt Coppock of the USS Fitzgerald are more interesting.  The CBS report is certainly based on more factual evidence.  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lt-jg-sarah-coppock-pleads-guilty-in-uss-fitzgerald-collision/.  According to the linked Stars and Strips article in the CBS news report, Lt Coppock fully acknowledged her failure to fully perform her duties.  She fully accepted of responsibility for the collision and for the resulting deaths of several sailors.  This suggests she possesses strong moral fiber, conviction, and integrity. I hope she will overcome her failure, will help others to avoid making the same mistakes, and turn the memory of this needless loss of life into a lifelong commitment to dedicated service.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,861

« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2018, 12:03:29 PM »

Any time you see a "panel of experts", change the channel.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,861

« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2018, 12:06:08 PM »

She will be selling cars by the end of the year. Guilty plea, punitive LOR....her career is over.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-crash-deliberate-panel-of-aviation-experts/

Saw this on the news this morning.  Figured it might interest some of us on here.

So far this report of a suicidal pilot is circumstantial and speculative.  Whether additional support for the theory will surface that offers greater support remains to be seen.

Links within the CBS website that report the recent court martial of Lt Coppock of the USS Fitzgerald are more interesting.  The CBS report is certainly based on more factual evidence.  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lt-jg-sarah-coppock-pleads-guilty-in-uss-fitzgerald-collision/.  According to the linked Stars and Strips article in the CBS news report, Lt Coppock fully acknowledged her failure to fully perform her duties.  She fully accepted of responsibility for the collision and for the resulting deaths of several sailors.  This suggests she possesses strong moral fiber, conviction, and integrity. I hope she will overcome her failure, will help others to avoid making the same mistakes, and turn the memory of this needless loss of life into a lifelong commitment to dedicated service.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,611

« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2018, 12:22:14 PM »

According to the linked Stars and Strips article in the CBS news report, Lt Coppock fully acknowledged her failure to fully perform her duties.  She fully accepted of responsibility for the collision and for the resulting deaths of several sailors.  This suggests she possesses strong moral fiber, conviction, and integrity. I hope she will overcome her failure, will help others to avoid making the same mistakes, and turn the memory of this needless loss of life into a lifelong commitment to dedicated service.

Or it was a plea deal to end the situation as quickly and cleanly as possible for all parties.

It would be hard to imagine she would get anything better then a "dismissal", assuming
there's no confinement involved.
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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 625

« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2018, 01:38:43 PM »


Or it was a plea deal to end the situation as quickly and cleanly as possible for all parties.

It would be hard to imagine she would get anything better then a "dismissal", assuming
there's no confinement involved.

Maybe.

USN brass in the 7th Fleet basically received a slap on the wrist for years of conspiring with Fat Leonard to defraud the Navy, plus who knows what other damage was done if Secret naval operations were signaled to our good friends in the West Pacific.  Could be she's just a lowling, while it was the CinC 7th Fleet implicated in the Fat Leonard problem.  Regardless, if she's sincere the Navy could (and should) capitalize on her experience to address and create culture change exposed by  the soft crimes of the 7th Fleet brass.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,861

« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2018, 02:22:59 PM »


Or it was a plea deal to end the situation as quickly and cleanly as possible for all parties.

It would be hard to imagine she would get anything better then a "dismissal", assuming
there's no confinement involved.

Maybe.

USN brass in the 7th Fleet basically received a slap on the wrist for years of conspiring with Fat Leonard to defraud the Navy, plus who knows what other damage was done if Secret naval operations were signaled to our good friends in the West Pacific.  Could be she's just a lowling, while it was the CinC 7th Fleet implicated in the Fat Leonard problem.  Regardless, if she's sincere the Navy could (and should) capitalize on her experience to address and create culture change exposed by  the soft crimes of the 7th Fleet brass.

Lot of out of order facts here, and there is no comparison. She was directly responsible for the collision and deaths. Financial crimes, while reprehensible by those entrusted with our security, do not compare.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 625

« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2018, 04:47:58 PM »


Lot of out of order facts here, and there is no comparison. She was directly responsible for the collision and deaths. Financial crimes, while reprehensible by those entrusted with our security, do not compare.

Could be.  From my experience and reading, organizations with laxness in one area (from the commander down) often exhibit laxness or worse elsewhere.  If only ONE collision had occurred during the period where this collision ocurrent the assertion of "no comparison" would be marginally credible.  With repeated collisions in a short time laxness appears to be systemic.  Who is ultimately responsible for readiness (and for security, as well as fiscal security)?  Tain't the lowlings.  It's an impossible expectation for culture change to occur at the bottom of the command chain.  It's generally well established in research and in leadership literature that a safety culture (and the benefits, i.e. saved lives, prevented injuries, and prevented damage to equipment or property) is profoundly shaped by actions at the top.  Where the commander & staff are more immersed in extracurricular hedonism rather than operational readiness, individual pleasures rather than OPSEC, it's not much of a stretch to conclude that a culture of competence (aka 'safe' operations) might not be brightly burning in their priorities.  Obviously, the crimes for which significant numbers of senior officers in the USN were convicted amount to more than fiscal malfeasance.  When the movements of major military assets are signaled in advance to corrupt 3rd parties no good can come of it.  Fortunately there were no serious repercussions resulting from these very serious breaches.  Had a conflict occurred during the period where very senior commanders were conspiring to sell secrets to Fat Leonard it's easy to foresee (or understand in retrospect) why large losses of capital resources - including multiple deaths of sailors and marines, might occur.  It is correct to say the failures "do not compare."  IMHO, the brass were guilty of far greater sins, committed repeatedly and over years.  Lt Coppock only screwed up once, and did not conspire (as did the brass) to hide her tracks.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 05:01:45 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,611

« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 06:17:13 PM »

The thing with this situation, and I'm only going on publicly available information and conjecture,
is that it seems as if no one was basically looking out the windows, or cared.

One could surmise, especially based on there being two other officers being disciplined, that
perhaps some activity or another was taking place that distracted them from their normal duties.

Just bent metal might mean a career processing Tri-Care in the desert somewhere, but people
died, which pretty much has to mean dismissal at a minimum.

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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,342
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2018, 01:03:05 AM »

Re: the Fitzgerald - Com 7th Fleet, Com CTF 70, and Com DesRon 15 were also removed from their positions due to a loss of confidence in their ability to command. That's two admirals and a captain.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 625

« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2018, 03:04:23 PM »

The thing with this situation, and I'm only going on publicly available information and conjecture,
is that it seems as if no one was basically looking out the windows, or cared.

One could surmise, especially based on there being two other officers being disciplined, that
perhaps some activity or another was taking place that distracted them from their normal duties.

Just bent metal might mean a career processing Tri-Care in the desert somewhere, but people
died, which pretty much has to mean dismissal at a minimum.

 
Seems like a waste of talent to impose a 'nuclear option'.  Beaching the surviving victims of this bad situation only exacerbates the already critical shortage of good people, pervasive fatigue, and ill prepared personnel.  How does THAT remedy even ONE of the many underlying systemic faults?

There might be great value for the Services and CAP looking into the concepts of a "Just Safety Culture" in situations like this, where systemic issues... not bad intent... led to the very bad outcome.  See the link below.  The 'JSC' approach is very well suited when the system created AND maintained by upchain commanders creates a high probability of lethal failures.  While shooting the lowling is satisfying in a medeval eye for an eye sense, it's not an effective means for correcting serious, unaddressed, but obvious systemic faults.  Dismissing the Admirals & an O-6 might have been the most appropriate actions in the entire post trauma response.  Their summary departure may??? create an opportunity for some necessary top-down culture & system change. 

Did the brass also receive Courts Martial review and punative cuts in pay?

http://nebula.wsimg.com/e962c0bc8cce03b575fe763936092da2?AccessKeyId=9ADBA739B30D22098056&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 03:19:18 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,342
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2018, 03:24:17 PM »

Quote
Did they too receive Courts Martial review and punitive cuts in pay?

I don't think so, but their careers effectively ended. Com 7th Fleet was getting ready to retire, so that was likely accelerated. I am unaware of the disposition on the other two, but early retirement was the probable outcome.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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