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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,252

« on: May 06, 2018, 11:34:15 AM »

What in this letter is CAP not already doing? With Form 5s and 91s and more, what else do we need?

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/static/media/cms/CAP_CC_Memorandum_Aircrew_Professio_1211B4DC79AFF.pdf
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,260

« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2018, 12:18:51 PM »

To do what you're supposed to do even when you're not getting a Form 5 or 91 ride.
And the majority of CAP's aircrew do just that. But there's that bunch out there who have trouble acting like "adults" when they're on their own.
They're the one's who get noticed in a bad way and give CAP the rep they have with the General Aviation community. (Not good)
Thus the reason for the letter.
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EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,881

« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2018, 12:39:44 PM »

In my experience, unprofessional pilot behavior is an extension of unprofessional conduct not related to air operations.

An unwillingness to follow regulations, pencil whipping ES and PD requirements, failure to wear a uniform correctly: all behaviors I've seen from pilots that I've refused to fly with. I figure that if they can't get their act together on the ground, why should things be any different in the air?
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,260

« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2018, 02:44:48 PM »

In my experience, unprofessional pilot behavior is an extension of unprofessional conduct not related to air operations.

An unwillingness to follow regulations, pencil whipping ES and PD requirements, failure to wear a uniform correctly: all behaviors I've seen from pilots that I've refused to fly with. I figure that if they can't get their act together on the ground, why should things be any different in the air?

You know, that Patton guy may have been on to something...
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2018, 03:02:31 PM »

In my experience, unprofessional pilot behavior is an extension of unprofessional conduct not related to air operations.

An unwillingness to follow regulations, pencil whipping ES and PD requirements, failure to wear a uniform correctly: all behaviors I've seen from pilots that I've refused to fly with. I figure that if they can't get their act together on the ground, why should things be any different in the air?

You know, that Patton guy may have been on to something...
Last time I mention George I was told we are not a military organization. Sadly they may have been right.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,252

« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2018, 03:14:10 PM »

A lot of broad generalizations there.  ^^^  There must be much more to this than pilots flying with the wrong color t-shirts or socks.

If there are un-safe pilots, there are already an abundance of rules and regs to weed them out. Nothing new needed, other than some folks on high cracking down.

I still don't get the mystery of the letter.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2018, 03:56:33 PM »

A lot of broad generalizations there.  ^^^  There must be much more to this than pilots flying with the wrong color t-shirts or socks.

If there are un-safe pilots, there are already an abundance of rules and regs to weed them out. Nothing new needed, other than some folks on high cracking down.

I still don't get the mystery of the letter.
Read the reports of the recent Civil Air Patrol aircraft accidents. Then explain them. Q.E.D.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,252

« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2018, 04:08:56 PM »

A lot of broad generalizations there.  ^^^  There must be much more to this than pilots flying with the wrong color t-shirts or socks.

If there are un-safe pilots, there are already an abundance of rules and regs to weed them out. Nothing new needed, other than some folks on high cracking down.

I still don't get the mystery of the letter.
Read the reports of the recent Civil Air Patrol aircraft accidents. Then explain them. Q.E.D.

Of course. But my point above is that we already have everything we need evaluate pilots and also to boot out the unsafe pilots. Seems the problem is not more education or check rides.  Its an "enforcement problem".
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2018, 04:37:38 PM »

A lot of broad generalizations there.  ^^^  There must be much more to this than pilots flying with the wrong color t-shirts or socks.

If there are un-safe pilots, there are already an abundance of rules and regs to weed them out. Nothing new needed, other than some folks on high cracking down.

I still don't get the mystery of the letter.
Read the reports of the recent Civil Air Patrol aircraft accidents. Then explain them. Q.E.D.

Of course. But my point above is that we already have everything we need evaluate pilots and also to boot out the unsafe pilots. Seems the problem is not more education or check rides.  Its an "enforcement problem".
Agreed. Totally.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,099

« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2018, 04:51:03 PM »

A lot of broad generalizations there.  ^^^  There must be much more to this than pilots flying with the wrong color t-shirts or socks.

If there are un-safe pilots, there are already an abundance of rules and regs to weed them out. Nothing new needed, other than some folks on high cracking down.

I still don't get the mystery of the letter.
Read the reports of the recent Civil Air Patrol aircraft accidents. Then explain them. Q.E.D.

Of course. But my point above is that we already have everything we need evaluate pilots and also to boot out the unsafe pilots. Seems the problem is not more education or check rides.  Its an "enforcement problem".

A lot of pilots "know better", and refuse to take subtle suggestions that their behavior is potentially causing issues.
I don't know, like maybe discussing things openly that are best left to private conversations, and insisting "it's no big deal"?

Extrapolate this to other issues where a pilot "knows better" and you might start to see the issue.

And attempts to minimize or trivialize this by escalating important, but less critical areas pilots routinely
ignore the rules, like proper uniform wear, are just more indication of the issues.  There's a reason
that the FRO checklist has to include a question about towbars.

Yes, Patton got it right - the uniform is a tool to judge a person's "buy in" to the program vs.
picking and choosing the parts someone thinks are "a big deal".  The "wrong t-shirt", per se, isn't going to
down an airplane, it's the attitude of "what's the big deal?". The uniform is supposed to be a visceral reminder
that you are now engaged in more then a $100 hamburger run.  Yes, it starts when you get dressed for duty.

The unfortunate thing is that the problem members (and this basically includes all facets of CAP) won't see themselves
in the mirror, and the ones who aren't an issue will just get additional hassle as reward for their hard work and dedication.

Until you start requiring regular in-face participation at more then annual academies and the occasional O-ride
day of not-only pilots but anyone who wants to maintain a qual, little is going to change.

There's also the nontrivial issue(s) of members who can fly CAP airplanes and never complete Level 1, and who have never
met their Unit Commander.

How about instead of slide decks on "professionalism", pilots are required to complete PD at the same level of any
other member, instead of waving the "I already do enough flag" all the time?

As an organization, CAP has already spent decades doing everything it can in favor of "retention of pilots", perhaps
pure numbers aren't the end all?

I would hazard membership in an organization that stressed excellence, standards, and expectation of performance
would have little issues with "retention" (or recruiting).

Of course like any course correction, that will make some people sad, and cost members in the short term, which isn't
something CAP generally is willing to do.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 05:19:41 PM by Eclipse » Logged


OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 05:14:03 PM »

Again, agreed. Having met and spoken with the new National CC I suspect he does as well.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 05:19:42 PM by OldGuy » Logged
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,252

« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2018, 05:30:48 PM »


A lot of pilots "know better", and refuse to take subtle suggestions that their behavior is potentially causing issues.
I don't know, like maybe discussing things openly that are best left to private conversations, and insisting "it's no big deal"?

Extrapolate this to other issues where a pilot "knows better" and you might start to see the issue.

And attempts to minimize or trivialize this by escalating important, but less critical areas pilots routinely
ignore the rules, like proper uniform wear, are just more indication of the issues.  There's a reason
that the FRO checklist has to include a question about towbars.

Yes, Patton got it right - the uniform is a tool to judge a person's "buy in" to the program vs.
picking and choosing the parts someone thinks are "a big deal".  The "wrong t-shirt", per se, isn't going to
down an airplane, it's the attitude of "what's the big deal?". The uniform is supposed to be a visceral reminder
that you are now engaged in more then a $100 hamburger run.  Yes, it starts when you get dressed for duty.

The unfortunate thing is that the problem members (and this basically includes all facets of CAP) won't see themselves
in the mirror, and the ones who aren't an issue will just get additional hassle as reward for their hard work and dedication.

Until you start requiring regular in-face participation at more then annual academies and the occasional O-ride
day of not-only pilots but anyone who wants to maintain a qual, little is going to change.

There's also the nontrivial issue(s) of members who can fly CAP airplanes and never complete Level 1, and who have never
met their Unit Commander.

How about instead of slide decks on "professionalism", pilots are required to complete PD at the same level of any
other member, instead of waving the "I already do enough flag" all the time?

As an organization, CAP has already spent decades doing everything it can in favor of "retention of pilots", perhaps
pure numbers aren't the end all?

I would hazard membership in an organization that stressed excellence, standards, and expectation of performance
would have little issues with "retention" (or recruiting).

Of course like any course correction, that will make some people sad, and cost members in the short term, which isn't
something CAP generally is willing to do.

Dressing for duty? ^^^  Why is that even an issue? Who is allowing folks out of uniform to fly planes?  Its all in the rule book. Its not an education issue. Its an enforcement (leadership) problem.

Forcing PD levels?  Sure, if required I'll fill out the checkboxes and finish up a PD level.  But do I think that is going to decrease accident levels, or whatever is bringing all this up? No, my becoming a PAO or something has very little to do with my piloting skills.

Its still an enforcement issue. Got bad pilots?  Boot 'em out!
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,099

« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2018, 08:08:12 PM »

But do I think that is going to decrease accident levels, or whatever is bringing all this up? No, my becoming a PAO or something has very little to do with my piloting skills.

Again, cite the wrong direction to somehow impugn the idea.

Pilots would pursue relevent tracks such as Operations, ES, and Stan Eval.

That would most likely have a positive effect on incidents as the service time at related areas
would dispel the "I don't read regs, I read FARs..." attitude of far too many CAP aircrew.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,252

« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2018, 08:18:37 PM »


Again, cite the wrong direction to somehow impugn the idea.


I'm not against any of it. Just trying to point out that if we have some pilots too set in their ways that are giving CAP a bad name ... a few more classes or regs may not change it for most.   Letters like the one linked and creating some new professional track or something for pilots may look good on paper in the reports to the AF, but not sure how effective it will really be down here at grass roots.

I'm all for trying, but ...

Maybe its time to "trim the herd".  Starting a new program is certainly easier than trying to break up the good old boy network ... but maybe its time for some tough decisions.

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mdickinson
Forum Regular

Posts: 195
Unit: NER-CT-022

« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2018, 09:43:12 PM »

I recently heard the tale of a couple pilots not far from me who got grounded or kicked out after it came to light that one of them (a relatively new member who had been designated as a check pilot) signed off another as competent in a particular model of CAP airplane... without flying it together first! I've met several CAP pilots over the years who don't play entirely by the rules - but to me that was a whole new level of jaw-dropping!

When I read the CAP/CC memo, I thought it might be referring to those sorts of shenanigans.

Yes, Patton got it right - the uniform is a tool to judge a person's "buy in" to the program vs.
picking and choosing the parts someone thinks are "a big deal".  The "wrong t-shirt", per se, isn't going to
down an airplane, it's the attitude of "what's the big deal?". The uniform is supposed to be a visceral reminder
that you are now engaged in more then a $100 hamburger run.  Yes, it starts when you get dressed for duty.

Dressing for duty? ^^^  Why is that even an issue? Who is allowing folks out of uniform to fly planes?  Its all in the rule book. Its not an education issue. Its an enforcement (leadership) problem.

You wouldn't think it would be an issue. But who else here has taken a checkride from a CAP check pilot that was in an incomplete uniform?
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,425
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2018, 10:12:39 PM »

This might provide a better look at the motivation:

Quote from: Col Jon Stokes, CAP, Pacific Region Commander
Commanders,

Over the last few years, CAP has seen a number of aircraft mishaps and accidents that were, without a doubt, avoidable.  At least three of these accidents have occurred here in Pacific Region.  Working towards reversing this trend, Maj Gen Smith rolled out his “Institutional Excellence in Mission Accomplishment” goal as part of his “Six Areas of Emphasis” which he introduced at upon taking command last August.   One of the aspects of this goal is to improve aircrew professionalism.  Attached is a memo from Gen Smith outlining this initiative.  Please review and make sure that it is forwarded to all CAP aircrew members including pilots, observers, scanners and airborne photographers.  You should also ensure that it is posted on your websites for future reference.  Let’s all do our part to improve the level of aircrew professionalism in Pacific Region and continue to work towards PCR being the safest region in the nation.

Regards,

Col Jon Stokes, CAP
Pacific Region Commander

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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 701

« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2018, 01:34:04 AM »

From today:

https://twitter.com/CivilAirPatrol/status/993282368730484736

Quote from: Civil Air Patrol
A Civil Air Patrol Cessna 182 from the Kentucky Wing was involved in an incident at Clarksville Regional Airport in TN this afternoon.  The plane's single occupant, a CAP pilot, is being evaluated at a local hospital. The incident is under investigation.

Found an article about this, according to Lt Col Wilson Polidura, "a thunderstorm took control of the aircraft."

http://clarksvillenow.com/local/small-plane-crashes-at-clarksville-regional-airport/

The article includes some pictures of N5419E.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2018, 01:38:16 AM »

More pics - http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/05/cessna-182r-skylane-n5419e.html
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2018, 01:39:33 AM »

More pics - http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/05/cessna-182r-skylane-n5419e.html

http://www.ky214.us/n5419e.htm

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dwb
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,342

« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2018, 06:39:48 AM »

I was happy to see the memo. It's very difficult to change culture in all of the nooks and crannies of the organization where the norms have been allowed to degrade. Fixing culture is a better long-term solution than beating people over the head with safety briefings then transferring them to a 000 unit if they don't comply.

All of this talk of professionalism and excellence needs to come with the other half of that approach: punishment. You can drive up with a truck full of carrots, but there will still be a few people who are gonna need the stick. Commanders will have to make some hard decisions when it comes to grounding pilots who are unsafe or exercise bad judgment. That's what is going to change the culture, to make people realize it's serious business.
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