CAP Talk

Operations => Aviation & Flying Activities => Topic started by: etodd on May 06, 2018, 11:34:15 AM

Title: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: etodd on May 06, 2018, 11:34:15 AM
What in this letter is CAP not already doing? With Form 5s and 91s and more, what else do we need?

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/static/media/cms/CAP_CC_Memorandum_Aircrew_Professio_1211B4DC79AFF.pdf (https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/static/media/cms/CAP_CC_Memorandum_Aircrew_Professio_1211B4DC79AFF.pdf)
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: PHall on May 06, 2018, 12:18:51 PM
To do what you're supposed to do even when you're not getting a Form 5 or 91 ride.
And the majority of CAP's aircrew do just that. But there's that bunch out there who have trouble acting like "adults" when they're on their own.
They're the one's who get noticed in a bad way and give CAP the rep they have with the General Aviation community. (Not good)
Thus the reason for the letter.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: EMT-83 on May 06, 2018, 12:39:44 PM
In my experience, unprofessional pilot behavior is an extension of unprofessional conduct not related to air operations.

An unwillingness to follow regulations, pencil whipping ES and PD requirements, failure to wear a uniform correctly: all behaviors I've seen from pilots that I've refused to fly with. I figure that if they can't get their act together on the ground, why should things be any different in the air?
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: PHall on May 06, 2018, 02:44:48 PM
In my experience, unprofessional pilot behavior is an extension of unprofessional conduct not related to air operations.

An unwillingness to follow regulations, pencil whipping ES and PD requirements, failure to wear a uniform correctly: all behaviors I've seen from pilots that I've refused to fly with. I figure that if they can't get their act together on the ground, why should things be any different in the air?

You know, that Patton guy may have been on to something...
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: OldGuy on May 06, 2018, 03:02:31 PM
In my experience, unprofessional pilot behavior is an extension of unprofessional conduct not related to air operations.

An unwillingness to follow regulations, pencil whipping ES and PD requirements, failure to wear a uniform correctly: all behaviors I've seen from pilots that I've refused to fly with. I figure that if they can't get their act together on the ground, why should things be any different in the air?

You know, that Patton guy may have been on to something...
Last time I mention George I was told we are not a military organization. Sadly they may have been right.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: etodd on May 06, 2018, 03:14:10 PM
A lot of broad generalizations there.  ^^^  There must be much more to this than pilots flying with the wrong color t-shirts or socks.

If there are un-safe pilots, there are already an abundance of rules and regs to weed them out. Nothing new needed, other than some folks on high cracking down.

I still don't get the mystery of the letter.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: OldGuy on May 06, 2018, 03:56:33 PM
A lot of broad generalizations there.  ^^^  There must be much more to this than pilots flying with the wrong color t-shirts or socks.

If there are un-safe pilots, there are already an abundance of rules and regs to weed them out. Nothing new needed, other than some folks on high cracking down.

I still don't get the mystery of the letter.
Read the reports of the recent Civil Air Patrol aircraft accidents. Then explain them. Q.E.D.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: etodd on May 06, 2018, 04:08:56 PM
A lot of broad generalizations there.  ^^^  There must be much more to this than pilots flying with the wrong color t-shirts or socks.

If there are un-safe pilots, there are already an abundance of rules and regs to weed them out. Nothing new needed, other than some folks on high cracking down.

I still don't get the mystery of the letter.
Read the reports of the recent Civil Air Patrol aircraft accidents. Then explain them. Q.E.D.

Of course. But my point above is that we already have everything we need evaluate pilots and also to boot out the unsafe pilots. Seems the problem is not more education or check rides.  Its an "enforcement problem".
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: OldGuy on May 06, 2018, 04:37:38 PM
A lot of broad generalizations there.  ^^^  There must be much more to this than pilots flying with the wrong color t-shirts or socks.

If there are un-safe pilots, there are already an abundance of rules and regs to weed them out. Nothing new needed, other than some folks on high cracking down.

I still don't get the mystery of the letter.
Read the reports of the recent Civil Air Patrol aircraft accidents. Then explain them. Q.E.D.

Of course. But my point above is that we already have everything we need evaluate pilots and also to boot out the unsafe pilots. Seems the problem is not more education or check rides.  Its an "enforcement problem".
Agreed. Totally.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Eclipse on May 06, 2018, 04:51:03 PM
A lot of broad generalizations there.  ^^^  There must be much more to this than pilots flying with the wrong color t-shirts or socks.

If there are un-safe pilots, there are already an abundance of rules and regs to weed them out. Nothing new needed, other than some folks on high cracking down.

I still don't get the mystery of the letter.
Read the reports of the recent Civil Air Patrol aircraft accidents. Then explain them. Q.E.D.

Of course. But my point above is that we already have everything we need evaluate pilots and also to boot out the unsafe pilots. Seems the problem is not more education or check rides.  Its an "enforcement problem".

A lot of pilots "know better", and refuse to take subtle suggestions that their behavior is potentially causing issues.
I don't know, like maybe discussing things openly that are best left to private conversations, and insisting "it's no big deal"?

Extrapolate this to other issues where a pilot "knows better" and you might start to see the issue.

And attempts to minimize or trivialize this by escalating important, but less critical areas pilots routinely
ignore the rules, like proper uniform wear, are just more indication of the issues.  There's a reason
that the FRO checklist has to include a question about towbars.

Yes, Patton got it right - the uniform is a tool to judge a person's "buy in" to the program vs.
picking and choosing the parts someone thinks are "a big deal".  The "wrong t-shirt", per se, isn't going to
down an airplane, it's the attitude of "what's the big deal?". The uniform is supposed to be a visceral reminder
that you are now engaged in more then a $100 hamburger run.  Yes, it starts when you get dressed for duty.

The unfortunate thing is that the problem members (and this basically includes all facets of CAP) won't see themselves
in the mirror, and the ones who aren't an issue will just get additional hassle as reward for their hard work and dedication.

Until you start requiring regular in-face participation at more then annual academies and the occasional O-ride
day of not-only pilots but anyone who wants to maintain a qual, little is going to change.

There's also the nontrivial issue(s) of members who can fly CAP airplanes and never complete Level 1, and who have never
met their Unit Commander.

How about instead of slide decks on "professionalism", pilots are required to complete PD at the same level of any
other member, instead of waving the "I already do enough flag" all the time?

As an organization, CAP has already spent decades doing everything it can in favor of "retention of pilots", perhaps
pure numbers aren't the end all?

I would hazard membership in an organization that stressed excellence, standards, and expectation of performance
would have little issues with "retention" (or recruiting).

Of course like any course correction, that will make some people sad, and cost members in the short term, which isn't
something CAP generally is willing to do.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: OldGuy on May 06, 2018, 05:14:03 PM
Again, agreed. Having met and spoken with the new National CC I suspect he does as well.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: etodd on May 06, 2018, 05:30:48 PM

A lot of pilots "know better", and refuse to take subtle suggestions that their behavior is potentially causing issues.
I don't know, like maybe discussing things openly that are best left to private conversations, and insisting "it's no big deal"?

Extrapolate this to other issues where a pilot "knows better" and you might start to see the issue.

And attempts to minimize or trivialize this by escalating important, but less critical areas pilots routinely
ignore the rules, like proper uniform wear, are just more indication of the issues.  There's a reason
that the FRO checklist has to include a question about towbars.

Yes, Patton got it right - the uniform is a tool to judge a person's "buy in" to the program vs.
picking and choosing the parts someone thinks are "a big deal".  The "wrong t-shirt", per se, isn't going to
down an airplane, it's the attitude of "what's the big deal?". The uniform is supposed to be a visceral reminder
that you are now engaged in more then a $100 hamburger run.  Yes, it starts when you get dressed for duty.

The unfortunate thing is that the problem members (and this basically includes all facets of CAP) won't see themselves
in the mirror, and the ones who aren't an issue will just get additional hassle as reward for their hard work and dedication.

Until you start requiring regular in-face participation at more then annual academies and the occasional O-ride
day of not-only pilots but anyone who wants to maintain a qual, little is going to change.

There's also the nontrivial issue(s) of members who can fly CAP airplanes and never complete Level 1, and who have never
met their Unit Commander.

How about instead of slide decks on "professionalism", pilots are required to complete PD at the same level of any
other member, instead of waving the "I already do enough flag" all the time?

As an organization, CAP has already spent decades doing everything it can in favor of "retention of pilots", perhaps
pure numbers aren't the end all?

I would hazard membership in an organization that stressed excellence, standards, and expectation of performance
would have little issues with "retention" (or recruiting).

Of course like any course correction, that will make some people sad, and cost members in the short term, which isn't
something CAP generally is willing to do.

Dressing for duty? ^^^  Why is that even an issue? Who is allowing folks out of uniform to fly planes?  Its all in the rule book. Its not an education issue. Its an enforcement (leadership) problem.

Forcing PD levels?  Sure, if required I'll fill out the checkboxes and finish up a PD level.  But do I think that is going to decrease accident levels, or whatever is bringing all this up? No, my becoming a PAO or something has very little to do with my piloting skills.

Its still an enforcement issue. Got bad pilots?  Boot 'em out!
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Eclipse on May 06, 2018, 08:08:12 PM
But do I think that is going to decrease accident levels, or whatever is bringing all this up? No, my becoming a PAO or something has very little to do with my piloting skills.

Again, cite the wrong direction to somehow impugn the idea.

Pilots would pursue relevent tracks such as Operations, ES, and Stan Eval.

That would most likely have a positive effect on incidents as the service time at related areas
would dispel the "I don't read regs, I read FARs..." attitude of far too many CAP aircrew.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: etodd on May 06, 2018, 08:18:37 PM

Again, cite the wrong direction to somehow impugn the idea.


I'm not against any of it. Just trying to point out that if we have some pilots too set in their ways that are giving CAP a bad name ... a few more classes or regs may not change it for most.   Letters like the one linked and creating some new professional track or something for pilots may look good on paper in the reports to the AF, but not sure how effective it will really be down here at grass roots.

I'm all for trying, but ...

Maybe its time to "trim the herd".  Starting a new program is certainly easier than trying to break up the good old boy network ... but maybe its time for some tough decisions.

Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: mdickinson on May 06, 2018, 09:43:12 PM
I recently heard the tale of a couple pilots not far from me who got grounded or kicked out after it came to light that one of them (a relatively new member who had been designated as a check pilot) signed off another as competent in a particular model of CAP airplane... without flying it together first! I've met several CAP pilots over the years who don't play entirely by the rules - but to me that was a whole new level of jaw-dropping!

When I read the CAP/CC memo, I thought it might be referring to those sorts of shenanigans.

Yes, Patton got it right - the uniform is a tool to judge a person's "buy in" to the program vs.
picking and choosing the parts someone thinks are "a big deal".  The "wrong t-shirt", per se, isn't going to
down an airplane, it's the attitude of "what's the big deal?". The uniform is supposed to be a visceral reminder
that you are now engaged in more then a $100 hamburger run.  Yes, it starts when you get dressed for duty.

Dressing for duty? ^^^  Why is that even an issue? Who is allowing folks out of uniform to fly planes?  Its all in the rule book. Its not an education issue. Its an enforcement (leadership) problem.

You wouldn't think it would be an issue. But who else here has taken a checkride from a CAP check pilot that was in an incomplete uniform?
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: SarDragon on May 06, 2018, 10:12:39 PM
This might provide a better look at the motivation:

Quote from: Col Jon Stokes, CAP, Pacific Region Commander
Commanders,

Over the last few years, CAP has seen a number of aircraft mishaps and accidents that were, without a doubt, avoidable.  At least three of these accidents have occurred here in Pacific Region.  Working towards reversing this trend, Maj Gen Smith rolled out his “Institutional Excellence in Mission Accomplishment” goal as part of his “Six Areas of Emphasis” which he introduced at upon taking command last August.   One of the aspects of this goal is to improve aircrew professionalism.  Attached is a memo from Gen Smith outlining this initiative.  Please review and make sure that it is forwarded to all CAP aircrew members including pilots, observers, scanners and airborne photographers.  You should also ensure that it is posted on your websites for future reference.  Let’s all do our part to improve the level of aircrew professionalism in Pacific Region and continue to work towards PCR being the safest region in the nation.

Regards,

Col Jon Stokes, CAP
Pacific Region Commander

Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Fubar on May 07, 2018, 01:34:04 AM
From today:

https://twitter.com/CivilAirPatrol/status/993282368730484736

Quote from: Civil Air Patrol
A Civil Air Patrol Cessna 182 from the Kentucky Wing was involved in an incident at Clarksville Regional Airport in TN this afternoon.  The plane's single occupant, a CAP pilot, is being evaluated at a local hospital. The incident is under investigation.

Found an article about this, according to Lt Col Wilson Polidura, "a thunderstorm took control of the aircraft."

http://clarksvillenow.com/local/small-plane-crashes-at-clarksville-regional-airport/

The article includes some pictures of N5419E.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: OldGuy on May 07, 2018, 01:38:16 AM
More pics - http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/05/cessna-182r-skylane-n5419e.html
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: OldGuy on May 07, 2018, 01:39:33 AM
More pics - http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/05/cessna-182r-skylane-n5419e.html

http://www.ky214.us/n5419e.htm

Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: dwb on May 07, 2018, 06:39:48 AM
I was happy to see the memo. It's very difficult to change culture in all of the nooks and crannies of the organization where the norms have been allowed to degrade. Fixing culture is a better long-term solution than beating people over the head with safety briefings then transferring them to a 000 unit if they don't comply.

All of this talk of professionalism and excellence needs to come with the other half of that approach: punishment. You can drive up with a truck full of carrots, but there will still be a few people who are gonna need the stick. Commanders will have to make some hard decisions when it comes to grounding pilots who are unsafe or exercise bad judgment. That's what is going to change the culture, to make people realize it's serious business.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: TheSkyHornet on May 07, 2018, 10:31:46 AM
But there's that bunch out there who have trouble acting like "adults" when they're on their own.
They're the one's who get noticed in a bad way and give CAP the rep they have with the General Aviation community.

This.

In my experience, unprofessional pilot behavior is an extension of unprofessional conduct not related to air operations.

An unwillingness to follow regulations, pencil whipping ES and PD requirements, failure to wear a uniform correctly: all behaviors I've seen from pilots that I've refused to fly with. I figure that if they can't get their act together on the ground, why should things be any different in the air?

This.

Seems the problem is not more education or check rides.  Its an "enforcement problem".

This.

A lot of pilots "know better", and refuse to take subtle suggestions that their behavior is potentially causing issues.

This.


Didn't we see a similar memo recently, several months back maybe?
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Live2Learn on May 07, 2018, 06:31:30 PM
This might provide a better look at the motivation:

Quote from: Col Jon Stokes, CAP, Pacific Region Commander
Commanders,

Over the last few years, CAP has seen a number of aircraft mishaps and accidents that were, without a doubt, avoidable.  At least three of these accidents have occurred here in Pacific Region.  Working towards reversing this trend, Maj Gen Smith rolled out his “Institutional Excellence in Mission Accomplishment” goal as part of his “Six Areas of Emphasis” which he introduced at upon taking command last August.   One of the aspects of this goal is to improve aircrew professionalism.  Attached is a memo from Gen Smith outlining this initiative.  Please review and make sure that it is forwarded to all CAP aircrew members including pilots, observers, scanners and airborne photographers.  You should also ensure that it is posted on your websites for future reference.  Let’s all do our part to improve the level of aircrew professionalism in Pacific Region and continue to work towards PCR being the safest region in the nation.

Regards,

Col Jon Stokes, CAP
Pacific Region Commander

It would be interesting to see exactly what mishaps have occurred.  I've seen at least one, and perhaps two CAP glider mishaps where the owning organization (CAP) was not mentioned in the NTSB report, nor was it mentioned in any news report I saw (and I looked).  I'm not aware of any powered aircraft mishaps where CAP's ownership of the involved aircraft is obscured, however that doesn't mean it hasn't occurred. 

IMHO, a lot more transparency by NHQ (Regions and WINGS) about the details of CAP mishaps and near mishaps would be very helpful to focus preventative efforts at all levels (National, Region, Wing, Group, and Squadron) more productively. 
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: SarDragon on May 07, 2018, 06:48:23 PM
The off-topic uniform nonsense got moved to its own topic.  ::)
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: OldGuy on May 07, 2018, 10:12:27 PM
This might provide a better look at the motivation:

Quote from: Col Jon Stokes, CAP, Pacific Region Commander
Commanders,

Over the last few years, CAP has seen a number of aircraft mishaps and accidents that were, without a doubt, avoidable.  At least three of these accidents have occurred here in Pacific Region.  Working towards reversing this trend, Maj Gen Smith rolled out his “Institutional Excellence in Mission Accomplishment” goal as part of his “Six Areas of Emphasis” which he introduced at upon taking command last August.   One of the aspects of this goal is to improve aircrew professionalism.  Attached is a memo from Gen Smith outlining this initiative.  Please review and make sure that it is forwarded to all CAP aircrew members including pilots, observers, scanners and airborne photographers.  You should also ensure that it is posted on your websites for future reference.  Let’s all do our part to improve the level of aircrew professionalism in Pacific Region and continue to work towards PCR being the safest region in the nation.

Regards,

Col Jon Stokes, CAP
Pacific Region Commander

It would be interesting to see exactly what mishaps have occurred.  I've seen at least one, and perhaps two CAP glider mishaps where the owning organization (CAP) was not mentioned in the NTSB report, nor was it mentioned in any news report I saw (and I looked).  I'm not aware of any powered aircraft mishaps where CAP's ownership of the involved aircraft is obscured, however that doesn't mean it hasn't occurred. 

IMHO, a lot more transparency by NHQ (Regions and WINGS) about the details of CAP mishaps and near mishaps would be very helpful to focus preventative efforts at all levels (National, Region, Wing, Group, and Squadron) more productively.
I am shocked at the lack of open and honest post incident internal reviews and discussion.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: etodd on May 07, 2018, 10:36:50 PM


I am shocked at the lack of open and honest post incident internal reviews and discussion.

Some lately have gotten quite a bit if I recall.

An accident with a glider tow, for example.

And the C-182 in Mobile, AL.

Some changes were made after both of those I believe.  IFR mins raised after the latter for one thing.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Fubar on May 08, 2018, 06:13:21 PM
I am shocked at the lack of open and honest post incident internal reviews and discussion.

Probably out of fear of feeding the lawyers.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Live2Learn on May 08, 2018, 07:51:40 PM

Some lately have gotten quite a bit if I recall.

An accident with a glider tow, for example.

And the C-182 in Mobile, AL.

Some changes were made after both of those I believe.  IFR mins raised after the latter for one thing.

As I recall the glider tow accident was REMOVED by the moderator(s), only to be restored after a Regional Commander sent a note down chain to all of his subordinate commanders & aircrew suggesting it be discussed.

The Mobile, Alabama accident discussion could scarcely be described as 'robust' in official conversations I've heard, nor on this forum.  Several mishaps between the two mentioned that resulted fatalities have not been the topic of even that much daylight.

From my perspective as a regular analyst of NTSB reports there is much room for productive discussion (even if somewhat speculative or pre-final report).  Examples abound.

FWIW, I think the changes to FRO procedures previously thoroughly bemoaned and wondered about on forum were very positive.   FWIW, I think the FRO corps would be much more effective if 1) the apponted officers had an aviation background sufficient to be an active and useful foil for the pilot's final decision on whether to launch; and 2) be separated from personal relationships (+ or -) with the PIC by requiring periodic out of unit flight releases.  Like it or not, it's tough for some FROs to say "you're too sick to fly" or ...  other words to that effect. 

I also believe the emphasis on "professionalism" is a good step.  However, IMHO, "professionalism" means we also need more complete information sharing when non-fatal as well as fatal mishaps occur.  For example, I have yet to see an 'official' good deconstruction for air crews of the fatal glider tow mishap, nor the recent non-fatal powered aircraft mishaps... some of which occurred during check rides, others during proficiency flights.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: etodd on May 08, 2018, 10:06:52 PM

The Mobile, Alabama accident discussion could scarcely be described as 'robust' in official conversations I've heard, nor on this forum.  Several mishaps between the two mentioned that resulted fatalities have not been the topic of even that much daylight.


Grass roots is where its best.  Our Squadron discussed that one in particular, in depth, using the NTSB reports and more, at a couple of our meetings.

Don't wait for things to come down from Hdqs.  Be pro-active locally.  :)

Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: NIN on May 09, 2018, 08:49:36 AM
It would be interesting to see exactly what mishaps have occurred.  I've seen at least one, and perhaps two CAP glider mishaps where the owning organization (CAP) was not mentioned in the NTSB report, nor was it mentioned in any news report I saw (and I looked).  I'm not aware of any powered aircraft mishaps where CAP's ownership of the involved aircraft is obscured, however that doesn't mean it hasn't occurred. 

IMHO, a lot more transparency by NHQ (Regions and WINGS) about the details of CAP mishaps and near mishaps would be very helpful to focus preventative efforts at all levels (National, Region, Wing, Group, and Squadron) more productively.

I read those NTSB reports and its kind of spotty as to when the "owning organization" is or isn't listed. Often they'll say who the mishap aircraft belongs to, but not always.  I think its more hit and miss due to the person writing the report rather than CAP convincing the NTSB to not list who owns the aircraft (especially considering that thru a cursory glance thru the NTSB database, even if the "owning organization" isn't listed in the preliminary or final report, its still usually listed in the forms and documentation in the the NTSB docket that backs up the report..)

But I wholeheartedly agree that detailed reports of mishaps and such are part of a continuing evolution of our knowledge, training and experience.

As an example: As a flight engineer in the Army, I read "Flightfax" (the Army's monthly safety pub, which includes summaries of accidents) pretty religiously under the belief that I can gain knowledge from the experience of others.  I once read about a mishap in Alaska where a Chinook landed on a DZ following an airdrop mission and a loose parachute got sucked into the aft rotor system, destroying the aircraft. A couple months later during Team Stupid Spirit, we were landing at the DZ in Yeoju following a heavy airdrop. On short final we kicked up an unsecured cargo chute.  My crewchief on the ramp said "Just blew a parachute away to the left," and I immediately told the pilots "go around to the right."  They did, and while the parachute probably would have not been a factor, I wasn't taking that chance. We radioed the ground and had them secure everything in the LZ before we came back in. Without that knowledge of the Alaska mishap 8 years before, I might have ignored my CE's call about the chute, and "what if...".   I also got my hands on the Navy's "Approach" magazine as often as I could. The Navy is *brutal* in their self-assessment of aviation mishaps, and each issue was filled with first-person articles written in the form of "I Learned About Flying From That" from Flying Magazine. Now, substantially, Approach covered blue-water carrier fixed-wing aviation, but you could read these articles and see the chain of events leading up to the mishap or incident, and it helped me as a young, impressionable flight engineer fill in some important gaps in my personal knowledgebase.

As another example: The US Parachute Association publishes incident reports in our monthly magazine "Parachutist."  We're not downplaying the fact that parachuting is series business, and usually these incident reports start out with "The deceased was ..."  (ie. "The deceased was part of an 18-way group exiting a Skyvan from 14,000 ft.." or "The deceased was performing a high performance landing when.."). I look at situations with both me and my students and think "The deceased was .." and insert whats going on, because it forces me to think about the circumstances and challenges. Do I want to be a part of my own incident report? Heck no.  So learn from the experience of others. 

Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Cliff_Chambliss on May 09, 2018, 09:18:32 AM
The Air Force has the HATR Reports.  As the Safety Officer/Assistant Chief Instructor for the Aero Club I would review these reports and often found items of useful information for our monthly safety briefs.  Especially useful were incident reports from other military aero clubs and CAP. 
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: NIN on May 09, 2018, 09:20:33 AM
Another thing to think about with pilot professionalism:

We are sometimes our own worst enemy here.  CAP members are flying a fairly obviously marked red, white & blue airplane with a special "callsign" and we're all in a uniform that calls us out as CAP folks. We fly into airpatches where we might not normally fly and we're not always familiar with the idiosyncrasies of the place.

Pop quiz:

Do you
a) blunder into the pattern, expecting the locals to recognize your exceptional skill and importance and clear the way; or
b) act like an ambassador from the organization, flying like you've got the FAR/AIM right in front of you, have reviewed the AFD Chart Supplements for that airport, and be a high-speed/low-drag professional aviator representing the rest of us?

Its all too often a) when it really needs to be b).  And it really, really needs to be b).

I'm sure there are plenty of guys in GA who fly their clapped out Cherokee 140 or shiny new Cirrus to some airport, never make a radio call, miss the calm wind runway,  fly the pattern backwards, bounce the thing three times on arrival, taxi too fast on the well-marked closed taxiway, treat the lineboy like dirt and eat all the cookies at the FBO (mmm, cookies). This happens every day. But nobody remembers that guy cuz he's wearing shorts, flip flops and a t-shirt and his plane looks like every other plane.  He flies off into the sunset and the locals go "What a jerkweed that guy was!" but once he's over the horizon, nobody will remember him.

But when a CAP pilot does the exact same thing, we're doing it with a big fat "look at me!" paintjob, decals, callsign and uniforms (even when that uniform is a polo shirt and grey pants). 

As a good friend who is a CAP pilot said: "With CAP flying, maybe we need to make the point a little clearer that every radio call, every approach, every interaction with an FBO, you're representing the entire organization and you may be the one making the impression that lasts for years and years. So don't be a [bonehead]."

Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on May 09, 2018, 09:42:23 AM
What are the HATR reports, and how do I get them?



Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Live2Learn on May 09, 2018, 11:48:57 AM
I read those NTSB reports and its kind of spotty as to when the "owning organization" is or isn't listed. Often they'll say who the mishap aircraft belongs to, but not always.  I think its more hit and miss due to the person writing the report rather than CAP convincing the NTSB to not list who owns the aircraft (especially considering that thru a cursory glance thru the NTSB database, even if the "owning organization" isn't listed in the preliminary or final report, its still usually listed in the forms and documentation in the the NTSB docket that backs up the report..)

I could be guilty of sloppy use of our language.  Never happened before.  I don't know why ownership in a few accidents was obscured (it's still easily traceable given the FAA's N-number lookup for those who really feel the need).  My point is and was that only CAP NHQ has complete records of all mishaps, including internal investigations AND the NTSB's sometimes cursory reports.  IMHO, CAP has missed a very real opportunity to enact culture change (if that's a goal) by obscuring the details of some Ops related events and not sharing any useful details of the few others mentioned in pubs like Volunteer Magazine nor the Region/Wing equivalents   that are widely circulated among Members.  Even CAP's Safety Beacon , while well written doesn't offer many specifics or deep insights into Ops mishaps.

Another "IMHO", factor in this apparent blind spot for critical examination and sharing of  important aviation mishap reports may very well because of  the deliberate organizational bifurcation of safety responsibilities within CAP.  Ops looks after ops, while the Director of Safety (and lower level safety officers) look after everything else.  Hence, in the same year a C206 flipped on landing a few years ago - with scant mention of the aircraft mishap on the ops side -  a highly placed Safety Officer sent out a rant on open toed shoes  - later retracted because many female cadets attending a gala CAP sponsored event planned to wear open toed shoes.  IMHO, that bifurcation is alive and well today... to our collective detriment.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Live2Learn on May 09, 2018, 12:54:04 PM

Quote from: Civil Air Patrol
A Civil Air Patrol Cessna 182 from the Kentucky Wing was involved in an incident at Clarksville Regional Airport in TN this afternoon.  The plane's single occupant, a CAP pilot, is being evaluated at a local hospital. The incident is under investigation.

Found an article about this, according to Lt Col Wilson Polidura, "a thunderstorm took control of the aircraft."

http://clarksvillenow.com/local/small-plane-crashes-at-clarksville-regional-airport/


The AIM offers some relevant advice here:

"7−1−29. Thunderstorm Flying
a. Thunderstorm Avoidance. Never regard any
thunderstorm lightly, even when radar echoes are of
light intensity. Avoiding thunderstorms is the best
policy. Following are some Do’s and Don’ts of
thunderstorm avoidance:
1. Don’t land or takeoff in the face of an
approaching thunderstorm.
A sudden gust front of
low level turbulence could cause loss of control."

Hopefully the accident report will be both informative AND discussed in CAP media.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Eclipse on May 09, 2018, 01:42:12 PM
This is all over the news today, hard to miss...

http://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1514646/air-force-directs-one-day-operational-safety-review/

Air Force directs one-day operational safety review

"WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- Chief of Staff of the Air Force Gen. David L. Goldfein directed all Air Force wings with flying and maintenance functions to execute a one-day operational safety review by May 21, 2018.

“I am directing this operational safety review to allow our commanders to assess and discuss the safety of our operations and to gather feedback from our Airmen who are doing the mission every day,” said Goldfein.

After a series of recent aviation mishaps and fatalities, including a WC-130 Hercules crash May 2, the Air Force is taking swift action to ensure the safety of its force. Although safety statistics over the past decade show Air Force Class A and B aviation mishaps trended downward, the Air Force's manned aviation mishap rate increased since the beginning of fiscal year 2018.

During the safety review, commander-led forums will gather feedback from Airmen who execute the Air Force's flying operations and challenge Airmen to identify issues that may cause a future mishap.

“We cannot afford to lose a single Airman or weapons system due to a mishap that could have been prevented,” said Goldfein. “Our men and women have volunteered to give their last full measure for America's security. My intent is to have commanders lead focused forums with their Airmen to help identify gaps and seams that exist or are developing, which could lead to future mishaps or unsafe conditions.”


Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: THRAWN on May 09, 2018, 01:45:25 PM
This is all over the news today, hard to miss...

http://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1514646/air-force-directs-one-day-operational-safety-review/

Air Force directs one-day operational safety review

"WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- Chief of Staff of the Air Force Gen. David L. Goldfein directed all Air Force wings with flying and maintenance functions to execute a one-day operational safety review by May 21, 2018.

“I am directing this operational safety review to allow our commanders to assess and discuss the safety of our operations and to gather feedback from our Airmen who are doing the mission every day,” said Goldfein.

After a series of recent aviation mishaps and fatalities, including a WC-130 Hercules crash May 2, the Air Force is taking swift action to ensure the safety of its force. Although safety statistics over the past decade show Air Force Class A and B aviation mishaps trended downward, the Air Force's manned aviation mishap rate increased since the beginning of fiscal year 2018.

During the safety review, commander-led forums will gather feedback from Airmen who execute the Air Force's flying operations and challenge Airmen to identify issues that may cause a future mishap.

“We cannot afford to lose a single Airman or weapons system due to a mishap that could have been prevented,” said Goldfein. “Our men and women have volunteered to give their last full measure for America's security. My intent is to have commanders lead focused forums with their Airmen to help identify gaps and seams that exist or are developing, which could lead to future mishaps or unsafe conditions.”


CAP following suit? You know, being total force and all that....
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Eclipse on May 09, 2018, 02:03:06 PM
Give an Airman a stand-down day, and he's still there. 

Do it in CAP, and the response ranges from "tree in a forest when no one is there..." to
"Are you nuts? We spent 6 months trying to get these O-rides planned - that's the last time I bother...".

And if it's on a meeting night, you're as likely to have an "open-toe shoe presentation", as anything related
to flight ops (not to mention all the units that have no flight or ES ops to speak of).

Excellence is a multi-year product of leadership, expectations, and ramifications, not a stand-down day.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: THRAWN on May 09, 2018, 02:10:50 PM
Give an Airman a stand-down day, and he's still there. 

Do it in CAP, and the response ranges from "tree in a forest when no one is there..." to
"Are you nuts? We spent 6 months trying to get these O-rides planned - that's the last time I bother...".

And if it's on a meeting night, you're as likely to have an "open-toe shoe presentation", as anything related
to flight ops (not to mention all the units that have no flight or ES ops to speak of).

Excellence is a multi-year product of leadership, expectations, and ramifications, not a stand-down day.

So the answer is "no". I have half a rock that says that it won't even be addressed by CAP leadership at any level. Go Speed Racer....
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: mdickinson on May 09, 2018, 02:21:54 PM
Another thing to think about with pilot professionalism:

We are sometimes our own worst enemy here.  CAP members are flying a fairly obviously marked red, white & blue airplane with a special "callsign" and we're all in a uniform that calls us out as CAP folks. We fly into airpatches where we might not normally fly and we're not always familiar with the idiosyncrasies of the place.

Pop quiz:

Do you
a) blunder into the pattern, expecting the locals to recognize your exceptional skill and importance and clear the way; or
b) act like an ambassador from the organization, flying like you've got the FAR/AIM right in front of you, have reviewed the AFD Chart Supplements for that airport, and be a high-speed/low-drag professional aviator representing the rest of us?

Its all too often a) when it really needs to be b).  And it really, really needs to be b).

I'm sure there are plenty of guys in GA who fly their clapped out Cherokee 140 or shiny new Cirrus to some airport, never make a radio call, miss the calm wind runway,  fly the pattern backwards, bounce the thing three times on arrival, taxi too fast on the well-marked closed taxiway, treat the lineboy like dirt and eat all the cookies at the FBO (mmm, cookies). This happens every day. But nobody remembers that guy cuz he's wearing shorts, flip flops and a t-shirt and his plane looks like every other plane.  He flies off into the sunset and the locals go "What a jerkweed that guy was!" but once he's over the horizon, nobody will remember him.

But when a CAP pilot does the exact same thing, we're doing it with a big fat "look at me!" paintjob, decals, callsign and uniforms (even when that uniform is a polo shirt and grey pants). 

As a good friend who is a CAP pilot said: "With CAP flying, maybe we need to make the point a little clearer that every radio call, every approach, every interaction with an FBO, you're representing the entire organization and you may be the one making the impression that lasts for years and years. So don't be a [bonehead]."

This! Exactly! A hundred times over.
How can we make it so that every check pilot in CAP gets to see this post?
Or maybe every pilot?
 :clap:
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: etodd on May 09, 2018, 02:47:12 PM
As much as I hate to say it, get rid of intra-squadron check rides, Form 5s and 91s.  Require it to be someone from another squadron. Another Wing would be better, but a logistical nightmare.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: NIN on May 09, 2018, 03:25:40 PM

Quote from: Civil Air Patrol
A Civil Air Patrol Cessna 182 from the Kentucky Wing was involved in an incident at Clarksville Regional Airport in TN this afternoon.  The plane's single occupant, a CAP pilot, is being evaluated at a local hospital. The incident is under investigation.

Found an article about this, according to Lt Col Wilson Polidura, "a thunderstorm took control of the aircraft."

http://clarksvillenow.com/local/small-plane-crashes-at-clarksville-regional-airport/


The AIM offers some relevant advice here:

"7−1−29. Thunderstorm Flying
a. Thunderstorm Avoidance. Never regard any
thunderstorm lightly, even when radar echoes are of
light intensity. Avoiding thunderstorms is the best
policy. Following are some Do’s and Don’ts of
thunderstorm avoidance:
1. Don’t land or takeoff in the face of an
approaching thunderstorm.
A sudden gust front of
low level turbulence could cause loss of control."

Hopefully the accident report will be both informative AND discussed in CAP media.

It could have just been a sloppy quote by the reporter (I didn't see the gent on camera, so correct me if I'm wrong there).

Wouldn't be the first time that "There was an approaching thunderstorm and just as the aircraft touched down a strong gust of wind from an unexpected direction pushed the plane off the runway during roll out.." turned into "a thunderstorm took control of the plane.."
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Live2Learn on May 09, 2018, 06:56:58 PM
As much as I hate to say it, get rid of intra-squadron check rides, Form 5s and 91s.  Require it to be someone from another squadron. Another Wing would be better, but a logistical nightmare.

Might be worth considering.  Some of my BEST check rides were from out of WG check pilots.  Ditto for using a different (out of squadron) FRO at least every 3rd flight release (kinda like check rides).   
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Cliff_Chambliss on May 10, 2018, 11:41:34 AM
What are the HATR reports, and how do I get them?

HATR:  Hazardous Air Traffic Report:  Not to sure how to get them.  We were a USAF Aero Club on Maxwell AFB and as a "tenant unit" were on the installation safety office distribution list.  The guidance for the program is AFMAN 91-223.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: mdickinson on May 14, 2018, 01:52:20 PM
Today the national Stan/Eval chief sent this email to all CAP pilots, announcing the "CAP Aviators Code of Conduct."

The email sends readers to "gocivilairpatrol.com" followed by several additional steps. For those who want to go directly to the relevat web page, the URL is https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/emergency-services/aircraft-operations/aircrew-professionalism/  (https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/emergency-services/aircraft-operations/aircrew-professionalism/)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Civil Air Patrol <noreply@capnhq.gov>
Date: Mon, May 14, 2018 at 1:21 PM
Subject: Aircrew Professionalism

Dear Civil Air Patrol Pilot,

On 4 May 2018, General Smith announced the launch of CAP’s Aircrew Professionalism Initiative. Phase One of this initiative is focused on the individual and begins with clear communication of the organization’s expectations with respect to aircrew professionalism. To that end, Civil Air Patrol is establishing an Aviators Code of Conduct as a guide to the ethical and professional behavior of its pilots. We ask that all CAP Pilots read and familiarize themselves with this document. Although much of what you will find in “the code” may seem to be apparent, professional organizations often use ethical codes as a means of clarifying expectations and aligning both organizational and individual behavior with those expectations. We hope that the professional principles outlined in this document will serve those purposes for CAP.

Please visit www.gocivilairpatrol.com (http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com) website under Programs > Emergency Services > Aircraft Operations > Aircrew Professionalism to download the Aviators Code of Conduct, explore recommended practices, and read Gen Smith's announcement. This webpage will be updated frequently as we progress through each phase of this important initiative.

Regards,

Kevin Conyers
Chief of Standardization & Evaluation
kconyers2@capnhq.gov
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Eclipse on May 14, 2018, 02:45:39 PM
[nitpick]

It's an Aircrew Professionalism initive, yet only sent to Pilots.

[/nitpick]
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: NC Hokie on May 14, 2018, 04:04:53 PM
[nitpick]

It's an Aircrew Professionalism initive, yet only sent to Pilots.

[/nitpick]

Additional nitpick...it wasn't sent to non-pilot commanders.  It's hard for commanders to hold members accountable for things that the commanders aren't aware of.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Eclipse on May 14, 2018, 04:08:43 PM
[nitpick]

It's an Aircrew Professionalism initive, yet only sent to Pilots.

[/nitpick]

Additional nitpick...it wasn't sent to non-pilot commanders.  It's hard for commanders to hold members accountable for things that the commanders aren't aware of.

That's been a peeve of mine for years - various lists, from NHQ on down, don't include CC's by default,
then HQ wants to hold the CC responsible for things they weren't' even aware of.

Really CC's should be included in anyting sent to the membership for any reason.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Live2Learn on May 14, 2018, 05:20:40 PM
All four parts of the Aircrew Professionalism package are worth reading or viewing.  It's what we 'should be doing', nicely summarized.  As written it would make an outline for a fairly good pilot/aircrew clinic.  It could also be fodder for more than one Squadron 'safety ed' conversation.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: etodd on May 14, 2018, 05:36:02 PM
Poorly formatted page.  Looks like CAP Aviators Code of Conduct and Explore Recommended Practices are one download. You have to click the titles separately.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Live2Learn on May 16, 2018, 10:58:54 AM
Quote from: Civil Air Patrol
A Civil Air Patrol Cessna 182 from the Kentucky Wing was involved in an incident at Clarksville Regional Airport in TN this afternoon.  The plane's single occupant, a CAP pilot, is being evaluated at a local hospital. The incident is under investigation.

Maybe the larger lesson in this mishap is that when someone from CAP with silver oak leaves on the shoulder makes an off the cuff remark to any reporter CAP won't be presented in a very positive light.  Has anyone noticed that darn near every image used by NC and national media to describe this event prominently displays the CAP logo?  What's the message?  CAP makes excuses for amateurish pilots.  CAP pilots don't exercise good judgement - and may be poorly qualified.  CAP aircraft are dangerous.  Etc.  Another lesson for us to think hard about is WHO should talk with the media.  The pilot?  The local commander?  The unit PAO?  Wing PAO?  Whoever speaks - on or OFF the record - represents CAP.  Perhaps the unfortunate Col. P. (if qualified and authorized to speak) should have merely affirmed that the accident is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.  And let it go there.
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on May 16, 2018, 07:03:21 PM
Quote from: Civil Air Patrol
A Civil Air Patrol Cessna 182 from the Kentucky Wing was involved in an incident at Clarksville Regional Airport in TN this afternoon.  The plane's single occupant, a CAP pilot, is being evaluated at a local hospital. The incident is under investigation.

Maybe the larger lesson in this mishap is that when someone from CAP with silver oak leaves on the shoulder makes an off the cuff remark to any reporter CAP won't be presented in a very positive light.  Has anyone noticed that darn near every image used by NC and national media to describe this event prominently displays the CAP logo?  What's the message?  CAP makes excuses for amateurish pilots.  CAP pilots don't exercise good judgement - and may be poorly qualified.  CAP aircraft are dangerous.  Etc.  Another lesson for us to think hard about is WHO should talk with the media.  The pilot?  The local commander?  The unit PAO?  Wing PAO?  Whoever speaks - on or OFF the record - represents CAP.  Perhaps the unfortunate Col. P. (if qualified and authorized to speak) should have merely affirmed that the accident is under investigation by the NTSB and FAA.  And let it go there.

Ive given lots of media advice as part of Crisis Management. Two great points: 1). Choose media spokesperson wisely - and don’t be shy telling the boss “It’s not you, not for this.”  2). There are times to stand in front of the company logo to get it into the shot - and there are times to stand in front of a tree. Learn the difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: CAP Pilot Professionalism
Post by: GorillaGrodd13 on October 10, 2018, 10:39:59 AM
I am going to have to take a S.W.A.G. at the news report. What are the chances that the reporter wanted to beat everyone to a story and arrived on scene just after the mishap and before the situation could be secured and stabilized, started asking questions even after they were asked to wait for a brief. Any time I have attended a brief in regards to Public Affairs and the news media it is made clear that many times the news media will try to get the message out that is briefed, they will do some less than desirable things in going after a story. All we can do is ask that they wait. We should steer away from telling them that the Flux Capacitor failed on the aircraft because they are not being patient enough. That will only cause them to become an adversary and not an asset.