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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Use of "over" and "out" on radio
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Author Topic: Use of "over" and "out" on radio  (Read 833 times)
Geber
Member

Posts: 68

« on: April 29, 2018, 10:40:19 AM »

Recently I've observed some CAP radio operators using a procedure similar to this (call signs are fictitious):

"Mission Base this is Ground Team 1 over"

"Ground Team 1 this is Mission Base over"

"Exercise Exercise Exercise Ground Team 1 is departing mission base for assigned search area over"

"Roger out"

"Ground Team 1 out"

The last transmission from Ground Team 1 is not what I'm used to from amateur radio. It seems excessive. Also, when the mission base used the proword out, that indicated they were not expecting a response, so there was no need for Ground Team 1 to respond.

I only have 6 months experience in CAP, so I googled it for manuals from the Air Force or other military branches, and found a Coast Guard manual https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/CGTTP_6-01_1A_Radiotelephone_Handbook-%20508%20compliant%20v2.pdf

On page 13 it seems to agree with my point of view.

Does anyone know of any official sources I could use when discussing this with the appropriate people in my unit?
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,664

« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2018, 10:50:43 AM »

CAPR 100-3 Attachment 4 Prowords.

Edited to add Also, Task L-0001 of Mission Base Staff Tasks. Test is Demonstrate use / understanding of basic Prowowords. Saying "Out" after another station says "Out" is a fail.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 11:31:50 AM by Luis R. Ramos » Logged

Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,209

« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2018, 11:18:01 AM »

Recently I've observed some CAP radio operators using a procedure similar to this (call signs are fictitious):

"Mission Base this is Ground Team 1 over"

"Ground Team 1 this is Mission Base over"

"Exercise Exercise Exercise Ground Team 1 is departing mission base for assigned search area over"

"Roger out"

"Ground Team 1 out"

The last transmission from Ground Team 1 is not what I'm used to from amateur radio. It seems excessive. Also, when the mission base used the proword out, that indicated they were not expecting a response, so there was no need for Ground Team 1 to respond.

I only have 6 months experience in CAP, so I googled it for manuals from the Air Force or other military branches, and found a Coast Guard manual https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/CGTTP_6-01_1A_Radiotelephone_Handbook-%20508%20compliant%20v2.pdf

On page 13 it seems to agree with my point of view.

Does anyone know of any official sources I could use when discussing this with the appropriate people in my unit?


This isn't amateur radio. The 100-3 is your reference for operating CAP radios.
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Geber
Member

Posts: 68

« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2018, 11:54:20 AM »



This isn't amateur radio. The 100-3 is your reference for operating CAP radios.

100-3 does not address this in sufficient detail to convince an airman who holds a contrary interpretation that the contrary interpretation is wrong.
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LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,831
Unit: Earth

« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2018, 12:08:45 PM »

The last transmission from Ground Team 1 is not what I'm used to from amateur radio. It seems excessive. Also, when the mission base used the proword out, that indicated they were not expecting a response, so there was no need for Ground Team 1 to respond.

After MB called out, the transmission conversation was over.  It is unnecessary for the Ground Team to also call "OUT".  However, it is not fail.  That is, it is not necessary, but it also is not "wrong" either.  Nothing bad is going to happen and in the matter of just a few seconds, no important transmission is going to be blocked.  When I hear it, I just simply remind the radio operator that it is not necessary.  However, on the flip side, the Mission Base should not have called "OUT" as they were not the originator of the conversation.  It is possible that the Ground Team had more information to state, thus the GT should have been the one to state "Ground Team 1, OUT".  But then again, most likely nothing is compromised from that.   
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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,962

« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2018, 12:09:09 PM »



This isn't amateur radio. The 100-3 is your reference for operating CAP radios.

100-3 does not address this in sufficient detail to convince an airman who holds a contrary interpretation that the contrary interpretation is wrong.

That's handled with a 3000psi stare.
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,664

« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2018, 12:22:45 PM »

What authority do you have?

You just tell them, and if he cannot believe you, remind him of his oath. You have been appointed over him. Then suspend his authority to use the radio in Ops Qual.

A young adult will always argue you to death if you let them. No matter if you have the Wing, Region, and NHQ / DOKs in person backing you.
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Geber
Member

Posts: 68

« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2018, 12:23:12 PM »

... However, on the flip side, the Mission Base should not have called "OUT" as they were not the originator of the conversation.  It is possible that the Ground Team had more information to state, thus the GT should have been the one to state "Ground Team 1, OUT".  But then again, most likely nothing is compromised from that.

Maybe I missed it in my reading, or 3 decades of using amateur radio and public safety radio, but I'm not aware of any rule or best practice that the calling station is the one to transmit "out". Indeed, for a longer conversation, the stations are likely to lose track of who called who, especially mobile stations where the operator doesn't have a log right in front of her. Also, I am not aware of any proword or recommended phraseology to say "I don't have anything more of substance to say, but I'm expecting a response from you". As far as I know, context and common sense is used to decide when a radio conversation is over, and it's time to transmit "out".

Also, "out" does not mean the station that sent it has stopped listening. A station that has more information can do so, even though the other station has transmitted "out".
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Geber
Member

Posts: 68

« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2018, 12:27:29 PM »

What authority do you have?

You just tell them, and if he cannot believe you, remind him of his oath. You have been appointed over him. Then suspend his authority to use the radio in Ops Qual.

A young adult will always argue you to death if you let them. No matter if you have the Wing, Region, and NHQ / DOKs in person backing you.

My authority is being the (new) squadron communications officer. The people using the radio procedures that I have doubts about are peers from other squadrons or superiors. This doubt about procedures creates a dilemma: I don't want to teach procedures that I think are incorrect, but I don't want to contradict those over whom I have no authority. So I want to get it settled before I teach about it to subordinates.
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,664

« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2018, 12:28:12 PM »

Your response is immaterial. It does not matter who feels "everything has been said" and calls the "out."

In CAP, "out" means "I have no more traffic, this is finished." If the other party feels they have more, you just reestablish the call, or could say "I have more traffic!"

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Both me and Hall told you the meaning of "out."

Now, OUT!

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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,650

« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2018, 12:35:33 PM »

First things first.

The whole reason why the miltiary has PROWORDS and COMM Procedures is to insure we have effective communications even when the communications medium is of poor quality.

Sure when you got good LOS on the repeaters and everybody's equipment is good and we have good listening conditions in the van and the comm room......all those over and outs, rogers, and copy alls may be a little excessive.

But if you do the proper procedures every time....all the time.....even when you don't have to......you can continue to communicate effectively even when you have a low strength staticy signal while trying to talk over the wind blowing in the window at 50 MPH (because the AC is out) or you comm room is in the same room as the planning cell.

Having said all that......ain't nobody gonna die because we skip using the proper communications procedures.
You've been doing Amateur Radio for 30 years....well remember back to your early days when you were still learning the ropes.  That's you now in CAP.   Give it time and you will learn how it is done.  In the mean time don't get too bent out of shape over it.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Geber
Member

Posts: 68

« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2018, 12:38:03 PM »

Your response is immaterial. It does not matter who feels "everything has been said" and calls the "out."

In CAP, "out" means "I have no more traffic, this is finished." If the other party feels they have more, you just reestablish the call, or could say "I have more traffic!"

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Both me and Hall told you the meaning of "out."

Now, OUT!

"Sir, your insistence that I always an "out" transmission with my own "out" transmission is not justified."

"What's your source of that information?"

"An poster on an unofficial internet forum with the unauthenticated user name Luis R. Ramos."

"You know better that to pay attention to junk on the internet. Come back when you have a real source"
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,650

« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2018, 12:41:43 PM »

Your response is immaterial. It does not matter who feels "everything has been said" and calls the "out."

In CAP, "out" means "I have no more traffic, this is finished." If the other party feels they have more, you just reestablish the call, or could say "I have more traffic!"

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Both me and Hall told you the meaning of "out."

Now, OUT!
"Sir, your insistence that I always an "out" transmission with my own "out" transmission is not justified."

"What's your source of that information?"

"An poster on an unofficial internet forum with the unauthenticated user name Luis R. Ramos."

"You know better that to pay attention to junk on the internet. Come back when you have a real source"
If you don't care for our interpretations of how it should be done.......then why did you come here to ask your question?   You should have directed your question to your unit/group/wing Communications Officer for clarification.   
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Geber
Member

Posts: 68

« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2018, 12:48:27 PM »

I will not tolerate this abuse. I will immediately notify the forum administrator to delete my account.
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2018, 01:23:40 PM »

I will not tolerate this abuse. I will immediately notify the forum administrator to delete my account.

I think you need to dial back the drama just a tad.  You asked a question and you didn't like the answer.  Get over it and move on.  This is the Internet.  If you are really searching for official guidance, read the pubs mentioned here and talk to your chain of command.  That is the only way to get official guidance.  Everything you read or are told outside of CAP publications or your chain of command is just someone's opinion.
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Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
Dark S'Member Lord
*
Posts: 716

« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2018, 01:25:50 PM »

While I do not see any abuse here, I do see immature discourse. We're done here.
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Use of "over" and "out" on radio
 


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