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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Ribbon devices
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Author Topic: Ribbon devices  (Read 1431 times)
I_Am_Twigs
Member

Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« on: April 12, 2018, 02:12:02 PM »

I'll be attending a third encampment this year, and I was wondering how I'd put the devices on the ribbon.
I have this habit of following USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't, especially with ABUs, of course there are the exceptions.

CAPM 39-1 doesn't specify that I have to have one device that represents three awards.
Example:



Quote
11.7.8.2. Single-constructed devices (two or more devices manufactured together). If
using single-constructed device on one ribbon, use same size device on all ribbons.
Separate devices if the combination of devices authorized is not available as a singleconstructed
device. In this event, place the device close to one another so they give the
appearance of a single-constructed device as long as the devices are the same; i.e., bronze
cluster and silver cluster.

AFI 36-2903 says I would be able to, spacing wise of course. But I can't find anything in CAP regs that might contradict this.

Would I be able to just use individual devices? I personally think it looks better.
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Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
2nd Encampment 2017
3rd Encampment 2018
C/2nd Lt, CAP
 
BraveRifles19D
Recruit

Posts: 35

« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2018, 02:45:50 PM »

I'll be attending a third encampment this year, and I was wondering how I'd put the devices on the ribbon.
I have this habit of following USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't, especially with ABUs, of course there are the exceptions.

CAPM 39-1 doesn't specify that I have to have one device that represents three awards.
Example:



Quote
11.7.8.2. Single-constructed devices (two or more devices manufactured together). If
using single-constructed device on one ribbon, use same size device on all ribbons.
Separate devices if the combination of devices authorized is not available as a singleconstructed
device. In this event, place the device close to one another so they give the
appearance of a single-constructed device as long as the devices are the same; i.e., bronze
cluster and silver cluster.

AFI 36-2903 says I would be able to, spacing wise of course. But I can't find anything in CAP regs that might contradict this.

Would I be able to just use individual devices? I personally think it looks better.
It's harder to get them on straight individually. I usually broke the pins off and used a tiny bit of super glue to affix it to the ribbon. Tiny bit is the key.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,101

« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2018, 02:50:03 PM »

I have this habit of following USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't

Your best bet is to ignore USAF regs as if they did not exist (since they really don't in a meaningful way for CAP)
and use the tied devices, they make them for a reason, #1 being you will never get singles to line
up as straight and even as you will the tied ones.

Spend your time where it matters, and don't lose sleep over things like this.
Logged


I_Am_Twigs
Member

Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2018, 02:54:58 PM »

I'll be attending a third encampment this year, and I was wondering how I'd put the devices on the ribbon.
I have this habit of following USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't, especially with ABUs, of course there are the exceptions.

CAPM 39-1 doesn't specify that I have to have one device that represents three awards.
Example:



Quote
11.7.8.2. Single-constructed devices (two or more devices manufactured together). If
using single-constructed device on one ribbon, use same size device on all ribbons.
Separate devices if the combination of devices authorized is not available as a singleconstructed
device. In this event, place the device close to one another so they give the
appearance of a single-constructed device as long as the devices are the same; i.e., bronze
cluster and silver cluster.

AFI 36-2903 says I would be able to, spacing wise of course. But I can't find anything in CAP regs that might contradict this.

Would I be able to just use individual devices? I personally think it looks better.
It's harder to get them on straight individually. I usually broke the pins off and used a tiny bit of super glue to affix it to the ribbon. Tiny bit is the key.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

I glue my devices on as well, and I don't have too much of a problem with keeping them straight.
I want to look my best in uniform so I usually measure x10 just to make sure it's right, I might be over doing it but what can I say? I'm a First Sergeant!  ;D ;D

My main concern is would I be allowed to use 2 individual devices. And if I can what would the spacing be in between them?
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Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
2nd Encampment 2017
3rd Encampment 2018
C/2nd Lt, CAP
 
I_Am_Twigs
Member

Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2018, 03:03:32 PM »

I have this habit of following USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't

Your best bet is to ignore USAF regs as if they did not exist (since they really don't in a meaningful way for CAP)
and use the tied devices, they make them for a reason, #1 being you will never get singles to line
up as straight and even as you will the tied ones.

Spend your time where it matters, and don't lose sleep over things like this.

I'm planning on joining the Air Force anyway so may as well get familiar with the regs.  ;D
And I usually only turn to Air Force regs when CAP regs are vague, if I can't get an answer from either I come here.
And personally I'd rather have slightly uneven devices then a bar between them. I'm just not 100% sure if that's something that would be allowed.
And trust me, the only sleep I lose is the sleepless hours spent waiting for a fire alarm drill at encampment.  ::)
Logged
Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
2nd Encampment 2017
3rd Encampment 2018
C/2nd Lt, CAP
 
BraveRifles19D
Recruit

Posts: 35

« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2018, 03:03:43 PM »

I'll be attending a third encampment this year, and I was wondering how I'd put the devices on the ribbon.
I have this habit of following USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't, especially with ABUs, of course there are the exceptions.

CAPM 39-1 doesn't specify that I have to have one device that represents three awards.
Example:



Quote
11.7.8.2. Single-constructed devices (two or more devices manufactured together). If
using single-constructed device on one ribbon, use same size device on all ribbons.
Separate devices if the combination of devices authorized is not available as a singleconstructed
device. In this event, place the device close to one another so they give the
appearance of a single-constructed device as long as the devices are the same; i.e., bronze
cluster and silver cluster.

AFI 36-2903 says I would be able to, spacing wise of course. But I can't find anything in CAP regs that might contradict this.

Would I be able to just use individual devices? I personally think it looks better.
It's harder to get them on straight individually. I usually broke the pins off and used a tiny bit of super glue to affix it to the ribbon. Tiny bit is the key.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

I glue my devices on as well, and I don't have too much of a problem with keeping them straight.
I want to look my best in uniform so I usually measure x10 just to make sure it's right, I might be over doing it but what can I say? I'm a First Sergeant!  ;D ;D

My main concern is would I be allowed to use 2 individual devices. And if I can what would the spacing be in between them?
I would just us the connected device. Much easier.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2018, 03:45:14 PM »

I have this habit of following USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't

Your best bet is to ignore USAF regs as if they did not exist (since they really don't in a meaningful way for CAP)
and use the tied devices, they make them for a reason, #1 being you will never get singles to line
up as straight and even as you will the tied ones.

Spend your time where it matters, and don't lose sleep over things like this.

I'm planning on joining the Air Force anyway so may as well get familiar with the regs.  ;D
And I usually only turn to Air Force regs when CAP regs are vague, if I can't get an answer from either I come here.
And personally I'd rather have slightly uneven devices then a bar between them. I'm just not 100% sure if that's something that would be allowed.
And trust me, the only sleep I lose is the sleepless hours spent waiting for a fire alarm drill at encampment.  ::)

When CAP regulations are vague, ask your leadership.  USAF regulations do not supersede CAP and in many cases can lead you down the wrong path. 

You can use the attached devices or  spend a ton of time trying to get get individual devices lined up and spaced correctly.
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I_Am_Twigs
Member

Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2018, 03:56:38 PM »

Quote
When CAP regulations are vague, ask your leadership.  USAF regulations do not supersede CAP and in many cases can lead you down the wrong path. 

I've found that my squadron leadership has a lot of the stuff wrong, which is why I turn to USAF and CAP regs more often. I still turn to my leadership quite a bit though, in fact I actually brought this to them before I went out looking for the answer. And I understand that USAF regs do not supersede CAP regs, like I said, I follow USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't, after all we do wear their uniforms.

Quote
You can use the attached devices or  spend a ton of time trying to get get individual devices lined up and spaced correctly.

Thank you sir, this was the answer I was looking for, or at least part of it.

Thanks for everyone's help!

-Twigs
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Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
2nd Encampment 2017
3rd Encampment 2018
C/2nd Lt, CAP
 
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,471

« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2018, 04:20:02 PM »

Quote
When CAP regulations are vague, ask your leadership.  USAF regulations do not supersede CAP and in many cases can lead you down the wrong path. 

I've found that my squadron leadership has a lot of the stuff wrong, which is why I turn to USAF and CAP regs more often. I still turn to my leadership quite a bit though, in fact I actually brought this to them before I went out looking for the answer. And I understand that USAF regs do not supersede CAP regs, like I said, I follow USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't, after all we do wear their uniforms.

Quote
You can use the attached devices or  spend a ton of time trying to get get individual devices lined up and spaced correctly.

Thank you sir, this was the answer I was looking for, or at least part of it.

Thanks for everyone's help!

-Twigs

The USAF regs don't go above CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 39-3. You wear your uniform in accordance with CAPM 39-1 which includes the decorations issued under CAPR 39-3.

AFI 36-2903 has nothing to do with your CAP uniform as a cadet.
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GaryVC
Forum Regular

Posts: 188
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2018, 04:32:49 PM »

I prefer individual devices. I have always used the TLAR method (That looks about right).
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,874

« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2018, 04:57:18 PM »

It's really not that difficult to get them straight. I used to do Poppa Thrawn's ribbons from the time I was about six. Little fingers made it easy...But seriously, literally millions of people have done this over nearly a century. Don't over think it. If they now have single units that represent multiple devices, use them. Spend your time doing something that carries more impact.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
I_Am_Twigs
Member

Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2018, 05:09:55 PM »

Quote
When CAP regulations are vague, ask your leadership.  USAF regulations do not supersede CAP and in many cases can lead you down the wrong path. 

I've found that my squadron leadership has a lot of the stuff wrong, which is why I turn to USAF and CAP regs more often. I still turn to my leadership quite a bit though, in fact I actually brought this to them before I went out looking for the answer. And I understand that USAF regs do not supersede CAP regs, like I said, I follow USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't, after all we do wear their uniforms.

Quote
You can use the attached devices or  spend a ton of time trying to get get individual devices lined up and spaced correctly.

Thank you sir, this was the answer I was looking for, or at least part of it.

Thanks for everyone's help!

-Twigs

The USAF regs don't go above CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 39-3. You wear your uniform in accordance with CAPM 39-1 which includes the decorations issued under CAPR 39-3.

AFI 36-2903 has nothing to do with your CAP uniform as a cadet.

I've read CAPM 39-1 and most of it looks like it's copy pasted straight from AFI 36-2903. There are a few things that 39-1 misses though.
Example:

39-1
Quote
(Blue lightweight jacket)
6.1.3.2.2. Cadet officers will wear regular or miniature size metal rank insignia on the jacket epaulet. Cadet NCOs and Airmen will wear metal chevrons on the jacket collar. Cadet airmen basic wear no collar insignia.

It never specifies the measurements for the insignia. And I don't think we're just going to slap some dots or diamonds on where ever we like, there has to be a measurement. (the NCO and airman insignia are 1" from the collar edge, assuming from most rank placing)

AFI 36-2903
Quote
(Blue lightweight jacket)
6.1.5.1.1.1. Officer Rank Insignia. Officers will center regular size rank insignia 5⁄8 inch from end of the epaulet and parallel with the sleeve seam, when applicable.

AFI 36-2903 gives a clear measurement, this is what I follow. CAP regs don't go against the measurement, there is nothing in CAP regs that says that I can't go off this.

Another example:

CAPM 39-1
Quote
(Topcoat)(Trench coat)
6.1.8.2.2. Cadet Rank Insignia. Cadet officers will wear regular or miniature size metal rank insignia on the coat epaulets. Cadet NCOs and Airmen will wear metal chevrons on the coat collar. Cadet airmen basic wear no collar insignia

Again, just like the jacket they gave no measurements.

AFI 36-2903
Quote
(Topcoat)(Trenchcoat)
6.1.7.1.1.1. Officer Rank Insignia. Officers wear shoulder mark insignia. Center 1 inch metal rank insignia 5⁄8 inch from end of epaulet. All Generals wear 1 inch stars. 3⁄4 inch stars are optional if unable to wear the 1 inch stars.
6.1.7.1.1.2. Enlisted Insignia. Metal rank insignia is worn centered 1-inch up from the bottom of the collar and parallel to the outer edge of the collar. Enlisted males may also wear 4-inch chevron rank and females may wear 3 1⁄2 or 4-inch chevrons centered on the outer arm halfway between the shoulder seam and elbow

Here are the clear measurements again.

Like I've said, I go off of Air Force regs until CAP regs say I can't. Yes CAP says I can't use USAF regs a lot, but there are instances that I've had to turn to them.

I mean no disrespect, this is just my way of getting around 39-1's flaws.

-Twigs
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 05:25:38 PM by I_Am_Twigs » Logged
Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
2nd Encampment 2017
3rd Encampment 2018
C/2nd Lt, CAP
 
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,426
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2018, 05:25:27 PM »

Devices - I used the joined ones.they are so much easier.

Grade insignia placement - the 39-1 has pictures with measurements for most of them, and the couple that are missing the numbers are just like others with numbers.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,874

« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2018, 05:27:51 PM »

You're comparing watermelons to truck tires. You're not in the Air Force, do not wear an Air Force uniform, so stick with the regulations for the organization that you belong to. The information (i.e. size of the insignia) is there. Use it.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,260

« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2018, 05:28:28 PM »

I have this habit of following USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't

Your best bet is to ignore USAF regs as if they did not exist (since they really don't in a meaningful way for CAP)
and use the tied devices, they make them for a reason, #1 being you will never get singles to line
up as straight and even as you will the tied ones.

Spend your time where it matters, and don't lose sleep over things like this.

I get my single devices to line up straight every time, of course I know what I'm doing.
Removing the prongs on the back and using very small amounts of Think Super Glue, applied with a small wire from a paper clip, works for me.
Do one device at a time and let it get set before you place the next device and it will happen.
Patience and not being in a hurry will reflect in the quality of your product.
Logged
I_Am_Twigs
Member

Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2018, 05:38:35 PM »

I have this habit of following USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't

Your best bet is to ignore USAF regs as if they did not exist (since they really don't in a meaningful way for CAP)
and use the tied devices, they make them for a reason, #1 being you will never get singles to line
up as straight and even as you will the tied ones.

Spend your time where it matters, and don't lose sleep over things like this.

I get my single devices to line up straight every time, of course I know what I'm doing.
Removing the prongs on the back and using very small amounts of Think Super Glue, applied with a small wire from a paper clip, works for me.
Do one device at a time and let it get set before you place the next device and it will happen.
Patience and not being in a hurry will reflect in the quality of your product.

Wait, what exactly is the paper clip wire for?
Logged
Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
2nd Encampment 2017
3rd Encampment 2018
C/2nd Lt, CAP
 
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,101

« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2018, 05:43:08 PM »

Wait, what exactly is the paper clip wire for?

He answers all your Office questions!

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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,684

« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2018, 06:02:06 PM »

Most probably to dab a little glue from the glue tube to the device, so it does not run off.

At least that is what I would do.
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Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,260

« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2018, 07:28:45 PM »

I have this habit of following USAF regs up until CAP regs say I can't

Your best bet is to ignore USAF regs as if they did not exist (since they really don't in a meaningful way for CAP)
and use the tied devices, they make them for a reason, #1 being you will never get singles to line
up as straight and even as you will the tied ones.

Spend your time where it matters, and don't lose sleep over things like this.

I get my single devices to line up straight every time, of course I know what I'm doing.
Removing the prongs on the back and using very small amounts of Think Super Glue, applied with a small wire from a paper clip, works for me.
Do one device at a time and let it get set before you place the next device and it will happen.
Patience and not being in a hurry will reflect in the quality of your product.

Wait, what exactly is the paper clip wire for?

You use it to apply a small, controlled amount of glue exactly where you want it.
That's why you use the thick gel type of Super Glue.
You also get about 10 seconds of time to align things before the glue sets up.
Logged
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 350

« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2018, 11:18:25 PM »

I prefer the look of separate devices, especially the triangle propeller ones.

However, I donít have the patience to do them myself so I use the joined ones.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Ribbon devices
 


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