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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Seeking some Advice
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Author Topic: Seeking some Advice  (Read 2486 times)
Capmonkey
Member

Posts: 68

« on: January 14, 2018, 03:51:36 PM »

Hey, guys!
     This question came about in a group of officers I was talking with. What would ya'll do?


 You have been appointed to a position reporting to a cadet from another wing. Although he out ranks you, you quickly come to the conclusion that this cadet has been appointed to a position he is not ready for and you have skills that he lacks. What is the best course of action?

Thanks for the help,
Capmonkey

[ed - You post it, you own it. Just because you might mot like the answers you have gotten, that doesn't mean that there is no longer any value to the post.]
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 07:33:27 PM by SarDragon » Logged
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,360
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2018, 04:04:16 PM »

Suck it up and make a learning opportunity out of it.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
CAP9907
Member

Posts: 62
Unit: NER-000

« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2018, 05:00:49 PM »

How could you possibly know all of that? This Cadet surely was appointed by a competent authority... do you claim to know more than that authority?

Settle down and just do your job and let others do theirs.

YMMV
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,555
Unit: Classified

« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2018, 05:47:15 PM »

Wow.  Nuked....
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,633

« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2018, 05:57:39 PM »

And when I address a cadet here that way I am told by other users "Praise in Public, Reprimand Privately." SZometimes any such message has been deleted by admins.

^^
  |
 @

(flabergasted with eyes turned upward)
(sighing with eyes turned upward)
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,555
Unit: Classified

« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2018, 06:36:33 PM »

And when I address a cadet here that way I am told by other users "Praise in Public, Reprimand Privately." SZometimes any such message has been deleted by admins.

^^
  |
 @

(flabergasted with eyes turned upward)
(sighing with eyes turned upward)

Nah.  The OP did it.
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Cadetter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 224

« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2018, 07:50:30 PM »

I think that Capmonkey is asking for advice on how to politely fill in the gaps, so to speak, without butting in. He/she is a C/Maj and likely doesn't need instructions on how to butt out of things. CAP is a leadership laboratory - if they want to improve the experience for subordinates, IMO "suck it up" and answers of the ilk are remarkably useless.

You can always suggest improvements, tips, etc. Just don't jump into doing the other cadet's position.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 07:57:26 PM by SarDragon » Logged
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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,252
Unit: Worry

« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2018, 07:58:45 PM »

Step 1. Locate the position checklist for the job at hand. If such a checklist does not exist, create one.
Step 2. Work with the cadet on identifying the best ways to accomplish the tasks.
Step 3. Profit.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,360
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2018, 08:01:55 PM »

Cadetter:

Point two - excellent.

Point one - my comment was a leadership lesson in itself. Sometimes that will be the kind of answer you have to deal with, without the follow-on commentary received here.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
CAP9907
Member

Posts: 62
Unit: NER-000

« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2018, 08:10:36 PM »

There was no reprimand here - he posed the question and asked advice. I gave advice. If he did not like the advice or my commentary, he could have felt free to disregard it all. Instead, he nuked his own post when it got a little uncomfortable for him. If he cannot take the words of others on an anonymous forum, it further lends to my questioning his whole perception of ‘his’ situation.

As I say, these opinions are my own, YMMV.

And when I address a cadet here that way I am told by other users "Praise in Public, Reprimand Privately." SZometimes any such message has been deleted by admins.

^^
  |
 @

(flabergasted with eyes turned upward)
(sighing with eyes turned upward)
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,555
Unit: Classified

« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2018, 09:04:08 PM »

I , IMO "suck it up" and answers of the ilk are remarkably useless.

You're in for a wake up call.... Don't join the military or other type proffesion...
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NEBoom
Seasoned Member

Posts: 204

« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2018, 09:29:00 PM »

Hey, guys!
     This question came about in a group of officers I was talking with. What would ya'll do?


 You have been appointed to a position reporting to a cadet from another wing. Although he out ranks you, you quickly come to the conclusion that this cadet has been appointed to a position he is not ready for and you have skills that he lacks. What is the best course of action?


The best course of action:
He outranks you and has been appointed to a leadership position by competent authority.  Those are facts that aren't going to change without things getting messy for everyone, so don't try to change them.

Put your "superior skills" to work for him.  If he's struggling, offer to help.  He can learn from this, and so can you.  Don't give him attitude, don't refuse to help.  As a responsible Cadet it's your obligation to do what's right for the organization as a whole.

Lastly, don't worry about who gets credit.  As the leader he probably will, but you both will know who carried the load.  And, if all goes well and everyone acts the professional, you will both have had a learning experience.  Plus you may discover that you have come to develop a mutual respect between you.  Never discount that this person could become your best friend and ally from that other Wing.
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Lt Col Dan Kirwan, CAP
Nebraska Wing
Cadetter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 224

« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2018, 09:41:52 PM »

I , IMO "suck it up" and answers of the ilk are remarkably useless.

You're in for a wake up call.... Don't join the military or other type proffesion...

I may have been imagining a context based on my small subset of experiences (see below).

Cadetter:

Point two - excellent.

Point one - my comment was a leadership lesson in itself. Sometimes that will be the kind of answer you have to deal with, without the follow-on commentary received here.

I guessed that that's exactly the kind of answer - the only kind of answer - the OP is getting from the other cadet. Hence why I'd encourage the follow-on commentary. I may be totally wrong there as that's based on my experiences, when usually I could have improved my actions. Sometimes, I publicly challenged the leader - bad idea, especially for a mousey girl with no tact. Sometimes I sat, did nothing, sucked it up - usually that was appropriate when I was a minor enough character, but otherwise the ball falls into someone else's court or unfortunate things happen. Only lately have I started leading from behind and it works way better.

Now if there isn't actually a problem, or if it's a totally different type of issue, I'm totally off-base and I apologize.

OP: to add on to what NEBoom said, do you remember that passage in L2L volume 3 about the XO leading their boss from behind? Well IME that's important for every leader. Analyze what needs work and help out.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2018, 09:59:56 PM »

You are aware that SARDRAGON is a senior member right?
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Cadetter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 224

« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2018, 10:30:06 PM »

As far as I know, every poster in this thread is a seasoned senior member, except for myself and the OP.
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Billy Mitchell Award, 2016
Earhart Award, 2018

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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,360
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2018, 10:47:47 PM »

You are aware that SARDRAGON is a senior member right?

No harm, no foul; no offense taken. The commentary has been excellent all the way around.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,252

« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2018, 10:23:21 AM »

Recognize that this person, regardless of your opinion of their qualifications, is still in charge over you in whatever capacity you're signed up for. Do what you can to help guide, while respecting that they have decision making powers over you and your subordinates (if any).

How could you possibly know all of that? This Cadet surely was appointed by a competent authority... do you claim to know more than that authority?

That's not always true, and virtually everyone knows it. People are often selected out of what's seen on paper without any interview, which isn't necessarily wrong; that's just the process. But people are also often selected about of nepotism, which is an issue. It happens in CAP all the time.

That said, we don't know the circumstances of this situation. 
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GaryVC
Forum Regular

Posts: 177
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2018, 01:02:37 PM »

This probably happens frequently in CAP especially at places like encampment. I saw it happen this summer. Since my example of encampment only lasts a week the best advice is to do the best you can and make sure that the experiences of those below are the best that you can make them.
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CAP9907
Member

Posts: 62
Unit: NER-000

« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2018, 06:10:05 PM »

It happpens in the ‘real world’ also, at work etc and we well know that. My point was more that let’s say a Cadet Captain with 4 yrs in the program is essentially questioning the wisdom of what may very well be a Senior Member Captain with Level 3 and 10 years in the program who may also be a former Cadet....  Or they may be a new SM with 9 months of service. We don’t know here.

It is a bad practice, in CAP or in industry to believe that you may be more competent to make appointments to leadership positions than your superiors are... You may very well BE more competent to, but you’re not in that particular Leadership position to make that happen just now. Embrace your current position and do the best with it and maybe soon he will be the person making the Leadership appointments.

Again, YMMV

Recognize that this person, regardless of your opinion of their qualifications, is still in charge over you in whatever capacity you're signed up for. Do what you can to help guide, while respecting that they have decision making powers over you and your subordinates (if any).

How could you possibly know all of that? This Cadet surely was appointed by a competent authority... do you claim to know more than that authority?

That's not always true, and virtually everyone knows it. People are often selected out of what's seen on paper without any interview, which isn't necessarily wrong; that's just the process. But people are also often selected about of nepotism, which is an issue. It happens in CAP all the time.

That said, we don't know the circumstances of this situation.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,252

« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2018, 05:48:29 PM »

It happpens in the ‘real world’ also, at work etc and we well know that. My point was more that let’s say a Cadet Captain with 4 yrs in the program is essentially questioning the wisdom of what may very well be a Senior Member Captain with Level 3 and 10 years in the program who may also be a former Cadet....  Or they may be a new SM with 9 months of service. We don’t know here.

It is a bad practice, in CAP or in industry to believe that you may be more competent to make appointments to leadership positions than your superiors are... You may very well BE more competent to, but you’re not in that particular Leadership position to make that happen just now. Embrace your current position and do the best with it and maybe soon he will be the person making the Leadership appointments.

Again, YMMV

Recognize that this person, regardless of your opinion of their qualifications, is still in charge over you in whatever capacity you're signed up for. Do what you can to help guide, while respecting that they have decision making powers over you and your subordinates (if any).

How could you possibly know all of that? This Cadet surely was appointed by a competent authority... do you claim to know more than that authority?

That's not always true, and virtually everyone knows it. People are often selected out of what's seen on paper without any interview, which isn't necessarily wrong; that's just the process. But people are also often selected about of nepotism, which is an issue. It happens in CAP all the time.

That said, we don't know the circumstances of this situation.

This is why I stress to cadets that they have to get involved outside of their home unit.

Okay, so character and home performance may indicate to me that maybe you are the best candidate against some of the other cadets. But obviously someone with decision making powers see otherwise, whether it's because of your individual performance at an outside activity or perhaps your lack of participation. You know why you didn't get picked? Because you weren't worthy in someone's eyes, whether they selected their own kid, their buddy's kid, the cadet from their own squadron, or the cadet who really outshines everyone; sometimes it's the senior ranking person selected on that reason alone.

It is what it is. You show up and you do your job. And if you find out that your superior is grossly incompetent, you get over it and realize that's your boss. It's your job to make sure he/she doesn't look like a fool, and that the tasks still get accomplished. If their superiors pay attention, they'll recognize who actually did the work. And if you hit a point where it's causing a real issue, you need to take it up the chain and say, "Hey look, I'm trying to work with this guy, but there's a problem here---."

I rarely see cadets go "Sir, I think that's a really bad idea." I know of a lot of adults in the real world who can't say that either; it's uncomfortable. But you have to step up and take charge and provide that feedback. That's your job in the chain: not to blatantly follow orders, but to listen to those orders and recognize if there is a problem; correct it. And if you're told "No, this is what we're doing," you get over it and you do it. If there's no instruction, well, then you bring that up.
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Seeking some Advice
 


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