February 19, 2020, 10:04:09 pm

Will Cap ever buy c152's?

Started by jfkspotting, October 03, 2017, 02:05:44 am

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jfkspotting

Maybe second hand ones for soloing cadets?

etodd

Quote from: jfkspotting on October 03, 2017, 02:05:44 am
Maybe second hand ones for soloing cadets?


I sure don't see that happening. We have C-172s that do not get flown enough. Plenty of time on the schedules for Cadet training. No need for 'singular use' airplanes, that might not could be used even then, due to W&B issues.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

PHall

We used to have a few C-150's a long time ago. Sold because they became worthless for ES missions.
Cadet Flight Training is NOT a primary mission of CAP.

coudano

Quote from: PHall on October 03, 2017, 03:06:51 am
Cadet Flight Training is NOT a primary mission of CAP.


Perhaps it should be.

Nick

With respect to the 152s... you put 2 200 pound guys in the plane, you're almost at max gross weight. It truly would be limited to being a trainer for a 100 pound cadet and an instructor.

And cadet flight training may not necessarily be a primary mission of CAP, but sure as hell is one of those that strongly threads between all three of them.


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Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy

Panzerbjorn

Quote from: coudano on October 03, 2017, 03:54:20 am
Quote from: PHall on October 03, 2017, 03:06:51 am
Cadet Flight Training is NOT a primary mission of CAP.


Perhaps it should be.


No, it really shouldn't.

1. You don't have nearly the number of Instructor Pilots required to support it being a primary mission.  Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets?  That's saying that CAP needs to provide cadets with a MINIMUM of 200,000 flight hours.  I don't have the stat of how many Instructor Pilots we have at my fingertips, but you're talking being able to keep that pilot Flying and instructing as a full time job that's busier than a pilot mill full of Chinese student pilots, and expect them to do it for free.

2. It's been my experience in multiple wings and multiple squadrons that the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.

3. You have O-rides that give the cadets a taste of powered flight and glider flight.

4. People here gripe and complain how we expect cadets to pay for a $4 patch for their uniform and how it's a financial burden this or that on the cadets.  Now you want to put the financial burden of flight training on cadets as a primary mission of CAP?

5. There is not a thing that you can teach in a 152 that you can't teach in a 172.  You don't buy a bulk number of aircraft in CAP to support a singular task.  The ARCHER program should be a good reminder of that.  The 172 is much more versatile for such things than the 152 could ever be.
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout

PHall

Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 01:29:04 pm
Quote from: coudano on October 03, 2017, 03:54:20 am
Quote from: PHall on October 03, 2017, 03:06:51 am
Cadet Flight Training is NOT a primary mission of CAP.


Perhaps it should be.


No, it really shouldn't.

1. You don't have nearly the number of Instructor Pilots required to support it being a primary mission.  Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets?  That's saying that CAP needs to provide cadets with a MINIMUM of 200,000 flight hours.  I don't have the stat of how many Instructor Pilots we have at my fingertips, but you're talking being able to keep that pilot Flying and instructing as a full time job that's busier than a pilot mill full of Chinese student pilots, and expect them to do it for free.

2. It's been my experience in multiple wings and multiple squadrons that the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.

3. You have O-rides that give the cadets a taste of powered flight and glider flight.

4. People here gripe and complain how we expect cadets to pay for a $4 patch for their uniform and how it's a financial burden this or that on the cadets.  Now you want to put the financial burden of flight training on cadets as a primary mission of CAP?

5. There is not a thing that you can teach in a 152 that you can't teach in a 172.  You don't buy a bulk number of aircraft in CAP to support a singular task.  The ARCHER program should be a good reminder of that.  The 172 is much more versatile for such things than the 152 could ever be.



C-172's are useful east of the Rockies. Pretty much worthless in the mountains and deserts. High and hot is NOT their forte'.

Panzerbjorn

Quote from: PHall on October 03, 2017, 01:53:00 pm
C-172's are useful east of the Rockies. Pretty much worthless in the mountains and deserts. High and hot is NOT their forte'.


All aircraft have limitations.  This is why there's always pleading to put the turbo charged stuff in the fleet out west in the mountains instead of on the east coast where it's not quite so crucial.  But the 172 is still more versatile than a 152.  Not their forte does not necessarily equate to incapable.

If you're talking about cadet solos and flight training, are you really going to put a cadet in a 182 for their first solo?  You can't. 60-1 requires you to have 100 hours total time to fly a high performance airplane.  A cadet doing their first solo has between 10-20.
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout

FW

There is a reason Cessna no longer manufactures the C-152 (or C-162).  There is no longer a market for them.  The cost differential for manufacturing them is minimal, and the C-172 makes for an excellent training platform; plus, as said above, the C-172 is more versatile. 

PHall

Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 02:41:36 pm
Quote from: PHall on October 03, 2017, 01:53:00 pm
C-172's are useful east of the Rockies. Pretty much worthless in the mountains and deserts. High and hot is NOT their forte'.


All aircraft have limitations.  This is why there's always pleading to put the turbo charged stuff in the fleet out west in the mountains instead of on the east coast where it's not quite so crucial.  But the 172 is still more versatile than a 152.  Not their forte does not necessarily equate to incapable.

If you're talking about cadet solos and flight training, are you really going to put a cadet in a 182 for their first solo?  You can't. 60-1 requires you to have 100 hours total time to fly a high performance airplane.  A cadet doing their first solo has between 10-20.


Have seen people get their Private in a C-182, not a big deal. And a cadet soloing in a C-182? Well if all of their training has been in a C-182 should be no problem.
It's what they're used to.

Blanding

Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 01:29:04 pm
Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets? 

2. ...the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.


So... not 25,000 (the actual number of cadets).

Isn't the argument that even one more certified pilot is a success? Why would it be in the organization's interest to stop cadets from flight training? It seemed like the original point was that CAP should care about certifying pilots because that serves all three missions of our organization, not that every flight instructor should be expected to train every cadet (and then some).

FW

Quote from: Blanding on October 03, 2017, 04:05:11 pm
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 01:29:04 pm
Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets? 

2. ...the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.


Isn't the argument that even one more certified pilot is a success? Why would it be in the organization's interest to stop cadets from flight training? It seemed like the original point was that CAP should care about certifying pilots because that serves all three missions of our organization, not that every flight instructor should be expected to train every cadet (and then some).


It would be in CAP's interest to fly the aircraft they already have.  The only "restrictions" for cadet flight training is availability of IPs willing to train cadets.  We have ample aircraft; not the personnel.  Flight training is a adjunct to the cadet program. No one willingly discourages it.

Blanding

Quote from: FW on October 03, 2017, 05:08:26 pm
It would be in CAP's interest to fly the aircraft they already have...Flight training is a adjunct to the cadet program. No one willingly discourages it.


I don't think we're arguing that flight training is an opportunity; my opinion is that it should be given higher priority than "it exists" - especially considering reported pilot shortages, etc.

The discouragement I was responding to was:

Quote from: PHall on October 03, 2017, 01:53:00 pm
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 01:29:04 pm
Quote from: coudano on October 03, 2017, 03:54:20 am
Quote from: PHall on October 03, 2017, 03:06:51 am
Cadet Flight Training is NOT a primary mission of CAP.


Perhaps it should be.


No, it really shouldn't.



Ned

Quote from: Blanding on October 03, 2017, 05:19:37 pm

I don't think we're arguing that flight training is an opportunity; my opinion is that it should be given higher priority than "it exists" - especially considering reported pilot shortages, etc.




Well then, we have some exciting news coming out from NHQ shortly concerning flight training and cadets.  You will be pleased.

Stand by for news!

[/teaser]


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

Alaric

Quote from: Blanding on October 03, 2017, 04:05:11 pm
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 01:29:04 pm
Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets? 

2. ...the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.


So... not 25,000 (the actual number of cadets).

Isn't the argument that even one more certified pilot is a success? Why would it be in the organization's interest to stop cadets from flight training? It seemed like the original point was that CAP should care about certifying pilots because that serves all three missions of our organization, not that every flight instructor should be expected to train every cadet (and then some).


As usual though, Senior Members are out of luck since we are seen by the organization as mainly here to support the cadet program.

Panzerbjorn

Quote from: Blanding on October 03, 2017, 04:05:11 pm
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 01:29:04 pm
Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets? 

2. ...the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.


So... not 25,000 (the actual number of cadets).

Isn't the argument that even one more certified pilot is a success? Why would it be in the organization's interest to stop cadets from flight training? It seemed like the original point was that CAP should care about certifying pilots because that serves all three missions of our organization, not that every flight instructor should be expected to train every cadet (and then some).


Whoops on the 25,000, I concede that.  I also did my math wrong on the flight hours.  We're talking 1,000,000 flight hours minimum to take 25,000 cadets to their Private certificates.  No one said stop cadets from flight training.  The program is already set up to allow that.  I've taken two all the way to their Private certificates, though after they soloed and outside of CAP.  One's certificate was completely taken care of financially from a CAP flight academy scholarship.  The other wanted it on his own accord.  But to strongly encourage that CAP give flight training to cadets the same way we 'strongly encourage' to get cadets Flying their first O-flight within 60 days of joining.  It's rough enough to fit in those 125,000 flight hours for O-Flights.

I don't argue that flight training should be available to cadets.  I just argue that it shouldn't be a primary mission of CAP.
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout

Panzerbjorn

Quote from: PHall on October 03, 2017, 03:58:38 pm
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 02:41:36 pm
Quote from: PHall on October 03, 2017, 01:53:00 pm
C-172's are useful east of the Rockies. Pretty much worthless in the mountains and deserts. High and hot is NOT their forte'.


All aircraft have limitations.  This is why there's always pleading to put the turbo charged stuff in the fleet out west in the mountains instead of on the east coast where it's not quite so crucial.  But the 172 is still more versatile than a 152.  Not their forte does not necessarily equate to incapable.

If you're talking about cadet solos and flight training, are you really going to put a cadet in a 182 for their first solo?  You can't. 60-1 requires you to have 100 hours total time to fly a high performance airplane.  A cadet doing their first solo has between 10-20.


Have seen people get their Private in a C-182, not a big deal. And a cadet soloing in a C-182? Well if all of their training has been in a C-182 should be no problem.
It's what they're used to.


Sure.....if they have 100 hours of total time by the time they actually solo the 182.  But are you really going to accumulate 100 hours of total time pre-solo Just so you can do primary flight training in a CAP 182?
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout

Panzerbjorn

Quote from: Alaric on October 03, 2017, 06:33:22 pm
Quote from: Blanding on October 03, 2017, 04:05:11 pm
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 01:29:04 pm
Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets? 

2. ...the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.


So... not 25,000 (the actual number of cadets).

Isn't the argument that even one more certified pilot is a success? Why would it be in the organization's interest to stop cadets from flight training? It seemed like the original point was that CAP should care about certifying pilots because that serves all three missions of our organization, not that every flight instructor should be expected to train every cadet (and then some).


As usual though, Senior Members are out of luck since we are seen by the organization as mainly here to support the cadet program.


I think it has more to do with investing the time and resources to a Senior Member who is looking for cheap flight instruction and training, then cancelling their membership.  Mission Pilots can pursue any advanced rating they want to in CAP aircraft, and non-Mission Pilots can do it with Wing CC approval.
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout

Alaric

Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 07:25:21 pm
Quote from: Alaric on October 03, 2017, 06:33:22 pm
Quote from: Blanding on October 03, 2017, 04:05:11 pm
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 01:29:04 pm
Can you imagine telling all the Instructor pilots that they are expected to provide uncompensated flight instruction to a Rating for 50,000+ cadets? 

2. ...the number of cadets whose primary goal is to obtain their Private Pilot certificate is in the minority, not majority.


So... not 25,000 (the actual number of cadets).

Isn't the argument that even one more certified pilot is a success? Why would it be in the organization's interest to stop cadets from flight training? It seemed like the original point was that CAP should care about certifying pilots because that serves all three missions of our organization, not that every flight instructor should be expected to train every cadet (and then some).


As usual though, Senior Members are out of luck since we are seen by the organization as mainly here to support the cadet program.


I think it has more to do with investing the time and resources to a Senior Member who is looking for cheap flight instruction and training, then cancelling their membership.  Mission Pilots can pursue any advanced rating they want to in CAP aircraft, and non-Mission Pilots can do it with Wing CC approval.


I disagree, that problem could easily be solved with an agreement much as employers have that do tuition reimbursement.  It is ludicrous that we are happy to train a 16 year old to be a pilot, but a 22 year old who never had the opportunity to join CAP, sorry buddy you'll have to do it on your own time and dime.  Like I said by and large whenever opportunities come out from National its about the cadets, Seniors are seen as support and wallets

PHall

Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 07:14:13 pm
Quote from: PHall on October 03, 2017, 03:58:38 pm
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on October 03, 2017, 02:41:36 pm
Quote from: PHall on October 03, 2017, 01:53:00 pm
C-172's are useful east of the Rockies. Pretty much worthless in the mountains and deserts. High and hot is NOT their forte'.


All aircraft have limitations.  This is why there's always pleading to put the turbo charged stuff in the fleet out west in the mountains instead of on the east coast where it's not quite so crucial.  But the 172 is still more versatile than a 152.  Not their forte does not necessarily equate to incapable.

If you're talking about cadet solos and flight training, are you really going to put a cadet in a 182 for their first solo?  You can't. 60-1 requires you to have 100 hours total time to fly a high performance airplane.  A cadet doing their first solo has between 10-20.


Have seen people get their Private in a C-182, not a big deal. And a cadet soloing in a C-182? Well if all of their training has been in a C-182 should be no problem.
It's what they're used to.


Sure.....if they have 100 hours of total time by the time they actually solo the 182.  But are you really going to accumulate 100 hours of total time pre-solo Just so you can do primary flight training in a CAP 182?


Who said anything about a CAP C-182? I know I didn't.