August 13, 2020, 08:13:07 am

LPN - Nurse Officer?

Started by zippy, July 30, 2017, 12:29:09 am

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zippy

Would a practical nurse LPN be a Nurse Officer? Or just registered?


arajca


MSG Mac

Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

zippy

July 30, 2017, 03:01:25 pm #3 Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 03:05:32 pm by zippy
Quote from: MSG Mac on July 30, 2017, 04:40:54 am
LPN is considered a "Health Technician" as are EMT's
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPHealthServiceDisciplines_8BA051F_B688722FF1EF0.pdf


The list splits up "Professional" from "Technician." There is no mention of "officer." The division seems to be who has a bachelor degree or higher, except RN nurse. LPN is listed as non-bachelor degree, but I met LPNs with bachelor degrees. " Athletic Trainer" is listed as having bachelor degree, but 95% of athletic trainer probably have no degree.

Is it having a bachelor degree that permits the use of the term "Officer?"
Would a practical nurse without a bachelor degree be a "Nurse Technician?"
What if a LPN has a bachelor degree?

arajca

Referencing CAPR 160-1, sect. 1-8. "Only nurse categories will have the title "nurse officer.""

Referring to categories provided in the title break down, there is no "nurse" category. Hence, any nurse - RN, LPN, etc - should be a "nurse officer".

Eclipse

As an "LPN", per se, the member could serve as the unit's Nurse Officer, and would qualify for advanced promotion to
2nd Lieutenant.  The level of degree is irrelevant.

See 160-1, and 35-5.



zippy

July 30, 2017, 04:18:11 pm #6 Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 04:28:11 pm by zippy
Quote from: Eclipse on July 30, 2017, 04:03:01 pm
As an "LPN", per se, the member could serve as the unit's Nurse Officer, and would qualify for advanced promotion to 2nd Lieutenant.  The level of degree is irrelevant.

See 160-1, and 35-5.


Do the assistants wear a medical insignia? Would there be more than one officer?

QuoteIf a unit has more than one health professional assigned, the most senior in terms of level of
education and training should be the designated health service program officer and any others as
his/her assistants.

spaatzmom

I would like to know, what exactly is the point of even having the whole healthcare ratings since only basic aid can be performed within CAP?  Should anyone need advanced care, it is a call to  911 that needs to be made and anyone regardless of degree and or training is capable of doing that. 

PHall

Quote from: spaatzmom on July 30, 2017, 04:21:31 pm
I would like to know, what exactly is the point of even having the whole healthcare ratings since only basic aid can be performed within CAP?  Should anyone need advanced care, it is a call to  911 that needs to be made and anyone regardless of degree and or training is capable of doing that.


Well, at one time they could do more, but times change. And it's not just CAP either.
On Air Force Aeromedical Evacuation flights, the Flight Nurses can not give "over the counter" medications to a passenger, they have to have the Load Master do it.
It's because the passenger is not a patient and they can only treat their patients.
Now if a passenger has a "medical emergency" then heck yes, they can treat them then. But not for the "routine" stuff. ???

Eclipse

Quote from: zippy on July 30, 2017, 04:18:11 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on July 30, 2017, 04:03:01 pm
As an "LPN", per se, the member could serve as the unit's Nurse Officer, and would qualify for advanced promotion to 2nd Lieutenant.  The level of degree is irrelevant.

See 160-1, and 35-5.


Do the assistants wear a medical insignia? Would there be more than one officer?

QuoteIf a unit has more than one health professional assigned, the most senior in terms of level of
education and training should be the designated health service program officer and any others as
his/her assistants.



Whether or not you wear the Nurse Officer insignia is in no way connected to whether you
are appointed as, or ever served as a unit "Nurse Officer". 

There is no insignia for a unit "Nurse Officer", or any other unit staff other then Commander.

The Nurse Officer Badge is for those who are properly personally rated, is awarded once, and worn for the entity
of one's CAP career unless another insignia replaces it or can be worn in that space as an option.

Quote from: spaatzmom on July 30, 2017, 04:21:31 pm
I would like to know, what exactly is the point of even having the whole healthcare ratings since only basic aid can be performed within CAP?  Should anyone need advanced care, it is a call to  911 that needs to be made and anyone regardless of degree and or training is capable of doing that.


Zero  - It is an affectation of the USAF model with no purpose within a CAP paradigm.



zippy

Quote from: Eclipse on July 30, 2017, 05:35:23 pm
The Nurse Officer Badge is for those who are properly personally rated, is awarded once, and worn for the entity of one's CAP career



So, as soon as a practical nurse is rated, the practical nurse wears the below badge?

Eclipse

Not exactly - wear of the badge is supposed to be approved by the CC after substantiation and before wear of it,
however in practical reality many members simply "do".

The badge above is not the current CAP nurse badge, this is:



And I don't think it's inappropriate to again raise the question as to whether or not you are a member.



beachdoc

August 05, 2017, 03:53:17 pm #12 Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 05:47:15 pm by beachdoc
Quote from: spaatzmom on July 30, 2017, 04:21:31 pm
I would like to know, what exactly is the point of even having the whole healthcare ratings since only basic aid can be performed within CAP?  Should anyone need advanced care, it is a call to  911 that needs to be made and anyone regardless of degree and or training is capable of doing that.


There are several answers to your comment.  First is the health services officer offers guidance to the commander as the most medically trained and qualified member in the unit.  It is important to have opinions available on health, medical, and safety matters.  EMT's, paramedics, nurses, physician extenders (NP's and PA's) and physicians all have a perspective on issues that others may not have or consider.

Secondly, while you are technically correct in stating that "basic aid" (whatever that is) is all that can be provided as a CAP member.  911 assets are, like the police, only minutes away when seconds matter.  Someone better trained than in ARC basic first aid is an asset in an emergency. 

I would not hesitate in an emergency to employ any skill I posses to save a life.  Imagine the consequences if I would fail to act and your (fill in the blank person important to you) died.  Your attorney would eat me alive.

The Army has recognized that someone may have advanced training or skills, despite not holding a medical MOS and designating them as a combat lifesaver

Just my $0.02 worth


Major Jeffery S Anderson, M.D., CAP
MAJ, MC, FS, USAR (ret)
Mission Pilot
Squadron Safety Officer/Medical Officer
MER-NC-022
ASMEL Instrument Airplane
Former FAA Senior AME

JayT

Quote from: zippy on July 30, 2017, 03:01:25 pm
Quote from: MSG Mac on July 30, 2017, 04:40:54 am
LPN is considered a "Health Technician" as are EMT's
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPHealthServiceDisciplines_8BA051F_B688722FF1EF0.pdf


The list splits up "Professional" from "Technician." There is no mention of "officer." The division seems to be who has a bachelor degree or higher, except RN nurse. LPN is listed as non-bachelor degree, but I met LPNs with bachelor degrees. " Athletic Trainer" is listed as having bachelor degree, but 95% of athletic trainer probably have no degree.

Is it having a bachelor degree that permits the use of the term "Officer?"
Would a practical nurse without a bachelor degree be a "Nurse Technician?"
What if a LPN has a bachelor degree?


You have no idea what you're talking about. Athletic Trainers are a protected title, and requires a degree.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

CyBorgII

August 06, 2017, 12:15:01 am #14 Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 12:19:19 am by CyBorgII
Quote from: JayT on August 05, 2017, 05:29:13 pm
You have no idea what you're talking about. Athletic Trainers are a protected title, and requires a degree.


Yes.  I do not know if the term "Sports Medicine" is used any more, or if it is synonymous with "Athletic Trainer," but I remember back in the late '70s when I was in junior high school, one of my PE teachers was one of the first people I knew of who got into the Sports Medicine field.  He had to take training up the wazoo in addition to the Physical Education degree he already held, and he did it while still teaching.  It was really a "gotta-wanna" thing for him. 

He eventually left teaching entirely and worked solely in his new field up until he retired.

And as far as the CAP Nursing insignia goes...as mentioned in another thread, one of my early squadron CC's had been an Air Force nurse in Vietnam, decorated for it, and was an RN.

I believe she told me that her RN status got her to come into the CAP as a Captain, but that was many years ago and memories fade.

However, she did nothing related to nursing in CAP in all the time I knew her, other than wear the insignia.

I do not even know what the regs are/were if, for example, one of our cadets got hurt doing PT, if she would have been able to treat said cadet or not.
Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.

JayT

Quote from: CyBorgII on August 06, 2017, 12:15:01 am
Quote from: JayT on August 05, 2017, 05:29:13 pm
You have no idea what you're talking about. Athletic Trainers are a protected title, and requires a degree.


Yes.  I do not know if the term "Sports Medicine" is used any more, or if it is synonymous with "Athletic Trainer," but I remember back in the late '70s when I was in junior high school, one of my PE teachers was one of the first people I knew of who got into the Sports Medicine field.  He had to take training up the wazoo in addition to the Physical Education degree he already held, and he did it while still teaching.  It was really a "gotta-wanna" thing for him. 

He eventually left teaching entirely and worked solely in his new field up until he retired.

And as far as the CAP Nursing insignia goes...as mentioned in another thread, one of my early squadron CC's had been an Air Force nurse in Vietnam, decorated for it, and was an RN.

I believe she told me that her RN status got her to come into the CAP as a Captain, but that was many years ago and memories fade.

However, she did nothing related to nursing in CAP in all the time I knew her, other than wear the insignia.

I do not even know what the regs are/were if, for example, one of our cadets got hurt doing PT, if she would have been able to treat said cadet or not.


Most nurses aren't able to practice outside of their place of employment. There is nothing more annoying than a nurse or CNA running up to a scene while I'm working.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

PHall

Quote from: JayT on August 06, 2017, 02:08:51 pm
Quote from: CyBorgII on August 06, 2017, 12:15:01 am
Quote from: JayT on August 05, 2017, 05:29:13 pm
You have no idea what you're talking about. Athletic Trainers are a protected title, and requires a degree.


Yes.  I do not know if the term "Sports Medicine" is used any more, or if it is synonymous with "Athletic Trainer," but I remember back in the late '70s when I was in junior high school, one of my PE teachers was one of the first people I knew of who got into the Sports Medicine field.  He had to take training up the wazoo in addition to the Physical Education degree he already held, and he did it while still teaching.  It was really a "gotta-wanna" thing for him. 

He eventually left teaching entirely and worked solely in his new field up until he retired.

And as far as the CAP Nursing insignia goes...as mentioned in another thread, one of my early squadron CC's had been an Air Force nurse in Vietnam, decorated for it, and was an RN.

I believe she told me that her RN status got her to come into the CAP as a Captain, but that was many years ago and memories fade.

However, she did nothing related to nursing in CAP in all the time I knew her, other than wear the insignia.

I do not even know what the regs are/were if, for example, one of our cadets got hurt doing PT, if she would have been able to treat said cadet or not.


Most nurses aren't able to practice outside of their place of employment. There is nothing more annoying than a nurse or CNA running up to a scene while I'm working.


They can comfort and try to keep your patient calm while you're working on them. And another set of "trained" hands comes in handy sometimes!

Eclipse

August 06, 2017, 03:57:29 pm #17 Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 04:02:19 pm by Eclipse
Quote from: beachdoc on August 05, 2017, 03:53:17 pm
There are several answers to your comment.  First is the health services officer offers guidance to the commander as the most medically trained and qualified member in the unit.  It is important to have opinions available on health, medical, and safety matters. 


No, it's really not, punctuated by the lack of actual duties or expectations of the HSO program.  Members don't join for that, aren't interested in it,
and don't want to spend the few contact hours they have with CAP hearing about something best left to their PCF.

Safety is the purview of Safety, not HSO, and medical professionals don't necessarily bring anything more to the table
when discussing "Safety", then anyone else in a CAP.

When AMEs start giving members free flight physicals and MOs give cadets back to school physicals they could bring value to to the table,
beyond that, there's not much they bring then the average other member in terms of ability or knowledge that is relevent to CAP.

People always take statements like above personally, which they shouldn't.  It's simply the fact of the CAP program and how it has evolved over
decades thanks to lawyers and actuaries.  The problem CAP has is that instead of just putting it on the table CAP wants to make every
fell special, so they continue a number of directorates which are more affectation then mission effective because of the feels.

This is no different then giving a classically trained bassoonist a nicer gold shirt in the ARC and then having to deal with
his complaints that he can't use his bassoon to comfort those in a disaster area instead of handing out blankets.   One is a
mission critical task, one is a thing the ARC dimply doesn't do.



EMT-83

Quote from: JayT on August 06, 2017, 02:08:51 pm
Most nurses aren't able to practice outside of their place of employment. There is nothing more annoying than a nurse or CNA running up to a scene while I'm working.


Yes there is: a doctor.

spaatzmom



Secondly, while you are technically correct in stating that "basic aid" (whatever that is) is all that can be provided as a CAP member.  911 assets are, like the police, only minutes away when seconds matter.  Someone better trained than in ARC basic first aid is an asset in an emergency. 

I would not hesitate in an emergency to employ any skill I posses to save a life.  Imagine the consequences if I would fail to act and your (fill in the blank person important to you) died.  Your attorney would eat me alive.

The Army has recognized that someone may have advanced training or skills, despite not holding a medical MOS and designating them as a combat lifesaver

Just my $0.02 worth
[/quote]

Let us also remember that CAP is NOT the military, it is a company with rules and regulations of its own.  You render aid beyond those company limits regardless of your training and or license and you are totally on your own as far as liability.  So unless you have an unlimited amount of money and a huge liability insurance policy that you are willing to risk losing, abide by the regulations cause this is when the attorney will indeed eat you alive since they would not be able to go after CAP.

And yes, I am a LPN but would follow the regulations of do what I can within CAP policies and dial 911 for beyond that.  I need my license too much to lose it.