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Author Topic: NHQ - Press Release Explaining US Civil Air Patrol  (Read 13673 times)
Major Carrales
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« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2007, 08:26:52 AM »

No seriously, How does any of this effect C/Amn Timmy Cadetson's training in my unit?  Or my Unit's Aircrews missions or form 5 Check rides?

It doesn't.  It really doesn't make a difference if the nametape says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" or "US CIVIL AIR PATROL" of "US AIR FORCE AUX."  No one but the people on these forums really gives two shakes of a lizard's tail about this.  Especially the downed pilot we find clinging to life or the wife and daughter who will continue to have a husband and father because of our efforts.

'nuff said!!! Your stretching...this out far longer...than it is warranted...with specious arguments (an argument that appears valid at first but is really fallacious.)  'nuff said!!! for real, please!!!

Now, send me a list of all your ribbons via a PM and I'll generate your RACK and send it to you.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 08:39:15 AM by Major Carrales » Report to moderator   Logged
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
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Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
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« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2007, 12:52:09 PM »

No seriously, How does any of this effect C/Amn Timmy Cadetson's training in my unit?

Well, since you asked, I’ll tell you. The name change itself is immaterial. You’re right; it probably makes no difference to the downed pilot. The problem is that we have other missions that we are supposed to be accomplishing, and the way that this “change” is being implemented does have an affect on your cadets.

It affects them because they see that the rules (the constitution / regulation) don’t apply when it suits the desires of the people at the top. It demonstrates that that the rules and regulations that are put in place by the Constitution which founded this organization aren’t worth the paper they are printed on.

It affects them even more when they see that the people above them (local / group / wing) are content to continue to allow things like this to happen without challenging them and instead simply tell them that you're a cadet and it doesn’t affect you so don't worry about it.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2007, 04:01:23 PM »

Still, Maj Gen Pineda, the BOG and the NEC violated the CAP Constitution and Bylaws and the U.S.C.  This is a true embarrassment.  That's all I'm saying.   

Now...how does any of this effect C/Amn Timmy Cadetson's training in my unit?  Or my Unit's Aircrews missions or form 5 Check rides?

How do any of the things we talk about here affect young Timmy? 
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BillB
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« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2007, 04:18:11 PM »

The only way it affects C/Amn Timmy Cadetscon is in the wallet when he has to buy the new tapes for his uniform.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2007, 05:01:34 PM »

Well, since you asked, I’ll tell you. The name change itself is immaterial. You’re right; it probably makes no difference to the downed pilot. The problem is that we have other missions that we are supposed to be accomplishing, and the way that this “change” is being implemented does have an affect on your cadets.

That is simply untrue.  In terms of cadets, they rarely even know that there is a CAP Constitution and there is even less of a chance that they think about it even on an annual basis.

Additionally, cadets are seldom aware of CAP Politics out of the squadron level...and when they are subject to things beyond that level it is normally in relation to CAC.  And that is how it should be.

The CAP CADET Oath, further more, says nothing about the CAP Constitution.  Plus, most CAP Officers don't know what the CAP Constitution says and likely never have seen a copy of it nor given it a second thought. 

In reality, it is only quoted at time like this where it was likely "Googled."

So, as I originally maintained, this does not EFFECT daily CAP operations and is no CAUSE for such division.


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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
Major Carrales
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« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2007, 05:02:07 PM »

The only way it affects C/Amn Timmy Cadetscon is in the wallet when he has to buy the new tapes for his uniform.

No, in our unit I normally buy them their nametapes et al, if not me, then the unit provides.
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
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Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
SARMedTech
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« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2007, 06:06:26 PM »

Truly, the only Constitution I care about is the pocket copy of the Constitution of the United States that I carry in my go bag. Seems to me this has a little more bearing on what we are meant to do and what we DO than anything else. And the Cadets with whom I work know this.

Uh Rah, Major!
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"Corpsman Up!"

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Major Carrales
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« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2007, 06:39:19 PM »

Truly, the only Constitution I care about is the pocket copy of the Constitution of the United States that I carry in my go bag. Seems to me this has a little more bearing on what we are meant to do and what we DO than anything else. And the Cadets with whom I work know this.

Uh Rah, Major!

I too carry a pocket Constitution.  Every American should know it. The Preamble says the purpose of the US Government, the Articles how it should run and he Bill of Rights what they can't take away.  Our politicians should hold it dear; but We the people...should hold it even higher.

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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
ColonelJack
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« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2007, 08:27:51 PM »

I too carry a pocket Constitution.  Every American should know it. The Preamble says the purpose of the US Government, the Articles how it should run and he Bill of Rights what they can't take away.  Our politicians should hold it dear; but We the people...should hold it even higher.

The other point of view is the one (apocraphylally) expressed by our President:

"The Constitution is just a [darn]ed piece of paper!  I wish people would stop waving the Constitution in my face!"

Now, I don't know for sure if he really said that, but sometimes I think he believes it.

Jack
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Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
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LtCol White
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« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2007, 08:57:27 PM »

I too carry a pocket Constitution.  Every American should know it. The Preamble says the purpose of the US Government, the Articles how it should run and he Bill of Rights what they can't take away.  Our politicians should hold it dear; but We the people...should hold it even higher.

The other point of view is the one (apocraphylally) expressed by our President:

"The Constitution is just a [darn]ed piece of paper!  I wish people would stop waving the Constitution in my face!"

Now, I don't know for sure if he really said that, but sometimes I think he believes it.

Jack

If you don't know for sure that he said it, then you should not be quoting him on it as if he did.

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ColonelJack
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« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2007, 09:11:28 PM »

If you don't know for sure that he said it, then you should not be quoting him on it as if he did.

Well, I did put in all the qualifiers I could.  And it's not an original from me; it's been reported in many other places.

Jack
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Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2007, 10:17:15 PM »

Truly, the only Constitution I care about is the pocket copy of the Constitution of the United States that I carry in my go bag. Seems to me this has a little more bearing on what we are meant to do and what we DO than anything else. And the Cadets with whom I work know this.

Uh Rah, Major!

I too carry a pocket Constitution.  Every American should know it. The Preamble says the purpose of the US Government, the Articles how it should run and he Bill of Rights what they can't take away.  Our politicians should hold it dear; but We the people...should hold it even higher.



Don't just carry the US Constitution.......should also have a copy of your State one as well.  Too many people have forgoten over time (happened sometime after the Civil War) that we are Citizens of our respective States first!  I don't know when the switch happened, or who was behind it (the Federal Government most likely to make sure another rebelion never took place), but it is a highly debated topic in State VS Federal rights and responsibilities. 

Sorry.......back to the topic
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What's up monkeys?
SARMedTech
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« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2007, 10:48:58 PM »

Truly, the only Constitution I care about is the pocket copy of the Constitution of the United States that I carry in my go bag. Seems to me this has a little more bearing on what we are meant to do and what we DO than anything else. And the Cadets with whom I work know this.

Uh Rah, Major!

I too carry a pocket Constitution.  Every American should know it. The Preamble says the purpose of the US Government, the Articles how it should run and he Bill of Rights what they can't take away.  Our politicians should hold it dear; but We the people...should hold it even higher.



Don't just carry the US Constitution.......should also have a copy of your State one as well.  Too many people have forgoten over time (happened sometime after the Civil War) that we are Citizens of our respective States first!  I don't know when the switch happened, or who was behind it (the Federal Government most likely to make sure another rebelion never took place), but it is a highly debated topic in State VS Federal rights and responsibilities. 

Sorry.......back to the topic

Not to worry, I carry both.
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« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2007, 01:24:51 AM »


Plus, most CAP Officers don't know what the CAP Constitution says and likely never have seen a copy of it nor given it a second thought. 


And therin lies a major part of the problem with this organization. There are too many units out there who aren't providing the training to their member, be it seniors or cadets, that they should be.

Emphasis below is mine.

CAP Pamphlet 151(E)

Training

STANDARDS, CUSTOMS AND COURTESIES

Your decision to join Civil Air Patrol (CAP) reflects a dedication and commitment to support this charitable, benevolent, nonprofit corporation. As a member of an Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, you are expected to follow the traditions, standards, customs and courtesies agreed and accepted by the Air Force and the Civil Air Patrol. These apply to all of us and reflect our pride and professionalism as members of the Civil Air Patrol.

I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by the Constitution and Bylaws of Civil Air Patrol and comply with Civil Air Patrol rules and regulations as from time to time may be amended or promulgated.
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2007, 01:49:24 AM »

I have read the Constitution and bylaws... I guess we cannot address the Civil Air Patrol as "CAP" since it is not listed (Section 2 of the Bylaws, 2.1 a & b).  I guess it's a 2b or all of us.

Also, I guess that the Kentucky, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and Virginia Wings are illegal and illegitimate since Section 6.3 c, 1 states...

Quote
(1) Each region shall be subdivided into areas known as wings. There shall be one wing for each state, the District of Columbia, and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico.

The above Wings are located in political entities known as Commonwealths.  The only such entity in the Civil Air Patrol bylaws is Puerto Rico.  Thus, there are only 48 acceptable Wings in the Civil Air Patrol.

Now...what is good for the goose is good for the gander.  If "US Civil Air Patrol" is apocryphal...then I call for the dismissal and dissolution of the above mentioned Wings

Hyperbole?  Yes, but so is this "US Civil Air Patrol" issue.  A specious argument is a specious argument.

I consider this to be a cosmetic change; for use by Public Affairs Officers, Unit stationary and Uniforms.  Not a truly official "name change."  The rationale for it is been discussed in the Press Release.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 02:01:18 AM by Major Carrales » Report to moderator   Logged
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
SARMedTech
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« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2007, 02:13:07 AM »

I will admit that I am the new kid on the block and the U.S issue has been around almost as long as I have been involved with CAP. But really, lets all follow the good Major's lead. I have to say that I am sick of hearing about it. As I have related to other members, I am proud to serve in the U.S. Civil Air Patrol, and my uniform tapes reflect that pride. If you truly feel that the decision by Maj Gen Pineda and others at NHQ signal the erosion of CAP as an entity, as a functioning organization with service as its guiding principle and that the Civil Air Patrol that you know and love is about to come crashing down around us, the I encourage you to register your displeasure by sending your letters of resignation to Maj Gen Pineda.

There may be those among us who feel that he has somehow usurped the constitutional authority of CAP by making this change and in other actions that many believe he has taken. I have not been around long enough to know all of those details and frankly they dont matter to me. If he has done something as heinous as many believe, then he should step down or be removed. But answer me this: are your day to day function within CAP going to change? Are you going to refuse to go looking for a downed pilot?  Will you not assist local authorities in finding a missing child or fly organs slated for donation to the waiting transplant team and patient? If those of you who seem so outraged by the decision by MG Pineda and truly feel that it is ruining CAP, you are free to remove yourself from service at ANY time. But then you know that, dont you? And not many of you plan to  resign, do you? If you did, you would already have done it. This is just a convenient way to let off some steam against Pineda. So, ok. You've vented. Now lets all get back to work.

Semper Vigilans.
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"Corpsman Up!"

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RiverAux
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« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2007, 02:15:38 AM »

Stop reading threads that are clearly labeled as being about this issue if you don't want to read about it anymore....
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SARMedTech
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« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2007, 02:16:58 AM »

Fair Enough. And stop complaining about it unless you are going to do something about it.
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"Corpsman Up!"

"...The distinct possibility of dying slow, cold and alone...but you also get the chance to save lives, and there is no greater calling in the world than that."
RiverAux
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« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2007, 02:26:43 AM »

I'm not wearing the tapes and don't plan to and will not be using the written form in any of my CAP work.  I'm not quite a corporate officer so beyond that there isn't much I can do about it except talk about it here. 

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Major Carrales
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« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2007, 02:29:22 AM »

I'm not wearing the tapes and don't plan to and will not be using the written form in any of my CAP work.  I'm not quite a corporate officer so beyond that there isn't much I can do about it except talk about it here. 



And should the Constitution and Bylaws be changed?  Will do wear them then...or will you resign?  I give it an 80% chance that it will be revised, amended or promulgated very soon to reflect all this.
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
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