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Author Topic: NHQ - Press Release Explaining US Civil Air Patrol  (Read 13679 times)
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,681

« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2007, 05:23:39 AM »

All I ask is.....is the world going to end?

Let's move on!

I don't like it, I dont' see why we had to change....but we did.....we have unti 2010 to buy the stupid things.....let's move one.

Any good missions or training coming up?  I've got SLS this week end and I'm going to NESA in July followed by CLC! :)
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Pumbaa
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Posts: 729

« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2007, 09:23:19 AM »

Agree'd Capt.. I need to cool off anyway..time to get on focus and stop letting the major on the minors get under my skin

NER SARCOMP is this weekend, I head off Friday AM to drive out to the ANGB in Mass., should be a great time for all, I am looking forward to interacting with some other folks and getting in the air.

And beleive it or not I almost shaved off my goatee.. almost... ;)
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mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,755

« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2007, 02:22:15 PM »

All I ask is.....is the world going to end?

Let's move on!

I don't like it, I dont' see why we had to change....but we did.....we have unti 2010 to buy the stupid things.....let's move one.

Any good missions or training coming up?  I've got SLS this week end and I'm going to NESA in July followed by CLC! :)

What this does is give a precedent for more changes.  Now they can make end runs around the rules and get away with it.
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What's up monkeys?
Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,136
Unit: NER-NH-038

Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2007, 03:48:03 PM »

All I ask is.....is the world going to end?

Let's move on!

I don't like it, I dont' see why we had to change....but we did.....we have unti 2010 to buy the stupid things.....let's move one.

Any good missions or training coming up?  I've got SLS this week end and I'm going to NESA in July followed by CLC! :)

Based on that stance, we can just eliminate our Public Affairs staff from NHQ straight through the squadron, since we don't need good exposure, identity, awareness or public image.   If all we have to do is perform our missions well, then why the need for any PA?
 
Meh - we're screwing it up our organizational identity, but we don't need to explore fixing it.  If 2d Lt Joe Smith at the Middle O' Nowhere Composite Squadron keeps up his observer skills, we'll be just fine.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
alamrcn
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Posts: 641
Unit: NCR-MN-047

Civil Air Patrol Patches
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2007, 06:12:07 PM »

Well, here is something similar to the comparison....
General Electric is spoken as "Gee, Eee" and not "Gee" or "Geh". And International Business Machines is spoken as "Eye Bee Emm", not "Ibum".

Hearing people - ESPECIALLY fellow members - refer to Civil Air Patrol as "Cap" is like nails on a chalkboard! These are also the same people who say "You-Saff" for the Air Force. I don't care about the semantics of Abbreviation vs. Acronym. If you are one of those folks that says "Cap" -- knock it off!

Back on topic, that "press release" sounded more like a defensive knee jerk to all the comments posted here! I'm with the person who made the 3rd or 4th post in the thread... National should go ALL THE WAY with the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" branding, or just friggen forget it.

- Ace
Mage, Us-Cap
Awks, You-Saff

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Ace Browning, Maj, CAP
History Hoarder
71st Wing, Minnesota
ZigZag911
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« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2007, 06:32:30 PM »

'CAP' and "Cee Ayy Pee' have been used interchangeably since I first joined back in 1970, and I would suspect it began long before I came along (and will continue long after I move on!)

Oddly enough, often one and the same individual (for instance -- me!) uses both versions.

And by the way, I've never heard anyone (including actice duty personnel assigned there) say anything but "CAP-Yousaf"!
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ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2007, 06:32:42 PM »

You want name recognition.. uhhh.. How about U.S. Air Force Auxillary

Amen to that!!!!!
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Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2007, 06:44:00 PM »

"Yousaf" sounds like somebody we should hate.
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Another former CAP officer
alamrcn
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Posts: 641
Unit: NCR-MN-047

Civil Air Patrol Patches
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2007, 08:26:40 PM »

"Yousaf" sounds like somebody we should hate.
Now that's profiling...  >:D quick, check Yousaf for an IUD!  Or maybe an Eye-Udd.

You want name recognition.. uhhh.. How about U.S. Air Force Auxillary
Now HOW did you EVER come up with something as absurd as THAT! Luckily you don't work on the Gen's staff with such silly ideas.

Maybe we're not using it because "Auxiliary" is such a difficult word to spell for many members! I know I used to be guilty of it, and how many times have you seen signs, business cards, and even patches with the Aux spelled inncorrectly.

Ok, sorry ModeRanger... moving on, nothing to see here.

-Ace
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 08:37:19 PM by alamrcn » Report to moderator   Logged

 

Ace Browning, Maj, CAP
History Hoarder
71st Wing, Minnesota
Al Sayre
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Mississippi Wing
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2007, 09:18:50 PM »

Actually, if we could trademark the misspelling and charge everyone a nickle everytime they used our trademark, our money woes would be over.
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2007, 01:37:50 AM »

Actually, if we could trademark the misspelling and charge everyone a nickle everytime they used our trademark, our money woes would be over.

Now you've done it.  As soon as NHQ hears this, they will issue a memo announcing it.  I can hear the cash registers at Vanguard ringing already.
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Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
Eagle400
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Posts: 688

« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2007, 06:36:52 AM »

What I wonder is, how long do the people at national expect this "U.S. CAP" change to last?  I mean, CAP has been "CAP" for over 60 years!  Why change the name now, when "CAP" has worked for more than 5 decades? 

What I also wonder, is if CAP had a National Commander different from Pineda, would such a change have been made?  I'm inclined to think that the "U.S. CAP" change is more of a Pineda thing than a general membership thing.   
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2007, 06:58:02 AM »

What I wonder is, how long do the people at national expect this "U.S. CAP" change to last?  I mean, CAP has been "CAP" for over 60 years!  Why change the name now, when "CAP" has worked for more than 5 decades? 

What I also wonder, is if CAP had a National Commander different from Pineda, would such a change have been made?  I'm inclined to think that the "U.S. CAP" change is more of a Pineda thing than a general membership thing.   

What I wonder, is if CAP had a National Commander different from Pineda, would such a change have been given a second thought?  I'm inclined to think that this topic is more of a "bias against Pineda thing" than a true issue.

Hear me out...lots of people are taking an incredulous stance on this.  But if it had been done during the administrations of Maj. Gen Richard L. Bowling, CAP or Maj. Gen. Dwight H. Wheless, CAP would you have the same objections?

Also, the Major General and the Brigadier General don't work alone.  All these changes are approved, either by tacit stance or by colabortion, en re the National Board and National Executive Committee...and by the Region Commanders.  Are they all traitors too?
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
Eagle400
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Posts: 688

« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2007, 07:40:04 AM »

What I wonder, is if CAP had a National Commander different from Pineda, would such a change have been given a second thought?  I'm inclined to think that this topic is more of a "bias against Pineda thing" than a true issue.

No, it's not a "bias against Pineda" thing, though it certainly doesn't help his credibility, either. 

Hear me out...lots of people are taking an incredulous stance on this.  But if it had been done during the administrations of Maj. Gen Richard L. Bowling, CAP or Maj. Gen. Dwight H. Wheless, CAP would you have the same objections?

Yes.  My problem is that nobody on the BOG, NEC or Pineda's staff bothered to even try to change the name of the organization in the Constitution and Bylaws or the U.S.C. before making the name change official.  I don't care about NHQ's rationale for making the name change; nothing can change the fact that the BOG, NEC and Nat'l CC did an end run around the rules.     

Also, the Major General and the Brigadier General don't work alone.  All these changes are approved, either by tacit stance or by colabortion, en re the National Board and National Executive Committee...and by the Region Commanders.  Are they all traitors too?

No.  They're just ignorant of the fact that when you change the name of an organization, that name must first be changed in the constitution and bylaws and any other document mandating the name of the organization.

Here, I'll show you where it states the Civil Air Patrol must be referred to as "Civil Air Patrol", not "U.S. Civil Air Patrol":

Quote from: CAP Constitution, Article II
NAME AND STATUS
The name of the Corporation shall be "Civil Air Patrol" and its status is that of the volunteer civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force. The Corporation may also be referred to as "Civil Air Patrol" or by such other titles as may be approved in the Bylaws.

Quote from: CAP Constitution, Section II
NAME AND CORPORATE SEAL
2.1 The name of Civil Air Patrol may be stated by any of the following:
a. "Civil Air Patrol"
b. "Civil Air Patrol, incorporated under Special Act of Congress approved July 1, 1946, Public Law 476, 79th Congress"
2.2 Each unit, including National Headquarters, shall use a name expressing its designation, the words "Civil Air Patrol" and may also refer to its status as the United States Air Force Auxiliary as set forth in regulations.
 
Emphasis mine.

Clearly, the use of any name other than Civil Air Patrol needs to be approved in the Constitution and Bylaws before an official name change can be made.  And since the name "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" doesn't appear anywhere in the Constitution and Bylaws as an approved name that CAP can go by, it is a clear violation of the Constitution and Bylaws.

But wait, there's more!

Quote from: 14 USC 4036
The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name "Civil Air Patrol" and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.

Quote from: 20 USC 9442
a) Volunteer Civilian Auxiliary. - The Civil Air Patrol is a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government.

Emphasis mine.

There is overwhelming evidence in both the U.S.C. and the CAP Constitution and Bylaws that Civil Air Patrol should be known as "Civil Air Patrol", not "U.S. Civil Air Patrol."  I hope this clears things up.
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Major Carrales
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Posts: 4,106

« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2007, 07:52:51 AM »

Now...how does any of this effect C/Amn Timmy Cadetson's training in my unit?  Or my Unit's Aircrews missions or form 5 Check rides?

A wise man told me the answer to these questions...

It doesn't.  It really doesn't make a difference if the nametape says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" or "US CIVIL AIR PATROL" of "US AIR FORCE AUX."  No one but the people on these forums really gives two shakes of a lizard's tail about this.  Especially the downed pilot we find clinging to life or the wife and daughter who will continue to have a husband and father because of our efforts.

'nuff said!!!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 07:58:06 AM by Major Carrales » Report to moderator   Logged
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
Eagle400
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 688

« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2007, 07:57:33 AM »

Still, Maj Gen Pineda, the BOG and the NEC violated the CAP Constitution and Bylaws and the U.S.C.  This is a true embarrassment.  That's all I'm saying.   
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2007, 07:58:43 AM »

Still, Maj Gen Pineda, the BOG and the NEC violated the CAP Constitution and Bylaws and the U.S.C.  This is a true embarrassment.  That's all I'm saying.   

Now...how does any of this effect C/Amn Timmy Cadetson's training in my unit?  Or my Unit's Aircrews missions or form 5 Check rides?
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
Eagle400
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 688

« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2007, 08:07:59 AM »

The precedent that is set by Pineda violating the CAP Constitution and Bylaws and U.S.C. is a horrible one.  People may argue, "Well, if a major general can get away with changing the name of the entire organization without following the proper channels, hand-propping this Cessna is no big deal!" and other things like "Well, CAP isin't supposed to be called the U.S. CAP but the general says it's okay, so pencil-whipping this Level I is perfectly fine."

See the problem here? 
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Major Carrales
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Posts: 4,106

« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2007, 08:09:00 AM »

The precedent that is set by Pineda violating the CAP Constitution and Bylaws and U.S.C. is a horrible one.  People may argue, "Well, if a major general can get away with changing the name of the entire organization without following the proper channels, hand-propping this Cessna is no big deal!" and other things like "Well, CAP isin't supposed to be called the U.S. CAP but the general says it's okay, so pencil-whipping this Level I is perfectly fine."

See the problem here? 

No, seriously...how does any of this effect C/Amn Timmy Cadetson's training in my unit?  Or my Unit's Aircrews missions or form 5 Check rides?
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
Eagle400
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 688

« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2007, 08:25:03 AM »

No, seriously...how does any of this effect C/Amn Timmy Cadetson's training in my unit?  Or my Unit's Aircrews missions or form 5 Check rides?

The fact that general Pineda did an end run around the CAP Constitution and Bylaws and the U.S.C. does not affect training, operations, etc.  However, the precedent this action has set most certainly does have the potential to affect these things.  I'll give you an example... 

Let's say C/Amn Cadetson gets promoted to C/A1C.  But, instead of calling him a Cadet Airman First Class, you decide to change his grade title to "Super Omnipotent Genius Cadet Airman."  It clearly states in the 52-16 that cadets who complete the Arnold Achievement are to be granted the title of Cadet Airman First Class, not "Super Omnipotent Genius Cadet Airman."  However, let's say (for the sake of argument) that you don't care.  You're going to call this cadet a Super Omnipotent Genius Cadet Airman no matter what.

What you'd be doing is essentially the same thing general Pineda did (in addition to the BOG and NEC) in naming Civil Air Patrol the United States Civil Air Patrol.  In order to change C/A1C to "Super Omnipotent Genius Cadet Airman", every manual that mandates the title "C/A1C" would have to be changed to read "Super Omnipotent Genius Cadet Airman" before the name change could be considered 100% valid.

That is just one example.  There are many others.     
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