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flynd94
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Posts: 174

« on: June 05, 2007, 09:17:46 PM »

Gents,

I need a little feedback to see if I am off base with MP training.  We all know there is no time (flight hours) requirement to complete the MP training track.  Instead you complete a task, then move (maybe).  I am our group Stan/Eval officer and, I recently received a request for a MP standard rating.

I took a look at the applicants SQTR and, all his training was conducted on 2 SAREX's on 3 different days.  I asked for a little more info and here is what I got:

Mission 1 -
 
Sortie 1: ELT Search, w/wing null, photo mission
total flight time 1.3, time in grid 0.6
 
Sortie 2: Contour Search of Mt St Helena, parallel grid search,
expanding square search, creeping line search
total flight time 1.6, time in grid 0.8
 
Mission 2 -
 
Sortie 1: Contour searches near Lake Berryessa, canyon searches,
creeping line searches, parallel grid searches
total flight time 2.0, time in grid 1.6

I looked at this and went are you kidding me.  That isn't even enough time to figure out what a MP does.  So, here is my question to all of you.  What do you consider to be a reasonable amount of flight time and sorties to complete your MP.

I am getting tired of being an IC and, dealing with aircrews that have no clue how to DF an ELT.  Heaven forbid they have to do a grid search.

Thanks for the feedback
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Keith Stason, Maj, CAP
IC3, AOBD, GBD, PSC, OSC, MP, MO, MS, GTL, GTM3, UDF, MRO
Mission Check Pilot, Check Pilot
flyguy06
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Posts: 2,195

« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2007, 09:41:32 PM »

That is a good question and I wonder the same thing. I see people taking a year or more to get MP qualified. Is this normal?
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RiverAux
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2007, 10:14:32 PM »

Of course there is no requirement that any of the tasks actually be done during a mission (except the perform a mission sortie task), just that 2 missions have to be done.  They both could be ELT searches and count.

However, I do agree that it would be hard to do those specific tasks in the air time reported.  Heck, it usually takes an hour or more just to do a quarter of a grid.  I would call the person that signed these off and ask exactly how these tasks were performed. 
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Al Sayre
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Mississippi Wing
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2007, 11:17:30 PM »

Depends on the motivation and piloting skills of the pilot.  Someone who actually reads and understands all of the training material, has a couple hundred hours, and understands the radio principles involved in DF,  does all of the talking tasks at a meeting or outside of a SAR-Ex could easily accomplish the two sorties and a CAPF 91 ride in a single weekend SAR-Ex.  The SQTR says two sorties, not what kind of sorties...  they could be transport missions and they would still count if they were an AFAM with a mission number.  Remember it's the CAPF-91 ride with the Mission Check Pilot that really determines if he/she is MP material...
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Lt Col Al Sayre
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dbaran
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2007, 03:50:27 AM »

10 months; 11.7 hours in grid; 6 sorties with 4 different mission pilot standards + a Form 91 with a MP std that I hadn't ever flown with before.
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Fifinella
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Posts: 456
Unit: SWR-LA-001

« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2007, 04:04:06 AM »

Depends on the motivation and piloting skills of the pilot.  Someone who actually reads and understands all of the training material, has a couple hundred hours, and understands the radio principles involved in DF,  does all of the talking tasks at a meeting or outside of a SAR-Ex could easily accomplish the two sorties and a CAPF 91 ride in a single weekend SAR-Ex.  The SQTR says two sorties, not what kind of sorties...  they could be transport missions and they would still count if they were an AFAM with a mission number.  Remember it's the CAPF-91 ride with the Mission Check Pilot that really determines if he/she is MP material...
Ditto.  Depends on what the pilot brings to the table.
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Judy LaValley, Maj, CAP
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SJFedor
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2007, 05:15:58 AM »

Depends on the motivation and piloting skills of the pilot.  Someone who actually reads and understands all of the training material, has a couple hundred hours, and understands the radio principles involved in DF,  does all of the talking tasks at a meeting or outside of a SAR-Ex could easily accomplish the two sorties and a CAPF 91 ride in a single weekend SAR-Ex.  The SQTR says two sorties, not what kind of sorties...  they could be transport missions and they would still count if they were an AFAM with a mission number.  Remember it's the CAPF-91 ride with the Mission Check Pilot that really determines if he/she is MP material...
Ditto.  Depends on what the pilot brings to the table.

Double Ditto. Some MPs are clueless and just coast through the F91 on good luck, others really understand what's going on. I finally got enough time to qual for MP, and I got the SQTR done w/ in a month, but I've also been an MO for over a year with a few actuals under my belt, MS for a little longer, and I've been playing with the DF units and grids and all since I started soloing in CAP aircraft when I was a cadet.

It's all individualized. Some people pick up quicker then others.

Personal opinion, MPs should at least have UDF or GTM3 training prior to their rating. I've been on crews where we've landed at an airport because it was obvious it was on the field, and the MP wanted to taxi the plane around to do the triangulation, instead of taking a handheld and doing bodyblocks or using an L-per. Most MPs know how to do this, but it couldn't hurt for them to understand how working on the ground can give you a different prespective then being in the bird. Not a pro-GT rant, just an idea.
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Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
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flynd94
Forum Regular

Posts: 174

« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2007, 08:11:03 PM »

Some interesting responses.  I have talked with quite  a few folks regarding this and, the consensus opinion is that 10-15 of MP training to be a effective MP.

I look it like I am teaching a student.  I have yet in 18 years of flying yet to run into a student pilot that can master a skill after 1 lesson.  Generally it takes a couple of lessons.  The problem with letting a person go with just 5 hours of MP training is they can handle the straight forward ELT but, what if its in the marina, hangar, carrier only or, any other weird situation then they are useless.

One of the core problems I see with CAP is the attitude of "well I completed all the tasks on the SQTR, so give me my rating".  Remember that is the minimum that needs to be done and, that if you dig a little deeper in it, you are supposed to be proficient in the task. 

If we want our customers (State OES, AF, etc) we need to push our members  to do more than just bare minimum.
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Keith Stason, Maj, CAP
IC3, AOBD, GBD, PSC, OSC, MP, MO, MS, GTL, GTM3, UDF, MRO
Mission Check Pilot, Check Pilot
Al Sayre
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Posts: 2,514
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2007, 08:28:55 PM »

Part of the problem is lack of training funds.  The only time a Pilot flies for free is on a funded AFAM.  Try telling a pilot with say three hundred hours who has completed every task on the SQTR, passed a form 91 with flying colors, and has come to the last four or five SAR-Ex's to get his scanner and MP sorties done, that he now has to do an additional 15-20 hours of training, either out of his own pocket or continue attending SAR-Ex's hoping to get in the left seat so he can log that mission time and see how long it is before you don't have any Mission Pilots... I don't know about your wing, but mine only has 9 aircraft for 50 pilots.  That means if a pilot is really lucky he can get in 2 sorties on a single SAR-Ex, because other people need to fly and train also.
 
It only takes 25 sorties to be a Mission Check Pilot
From CAPR 60-1
Quote
h. Mission Check Pilot. The following requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP mission check pilot in CAP aircraft.
(1) Be a highly experienced and qualified mission pilot with a thorough knowledge of current CAP operational and emergency services regulations.
(2) Have a minimum of 25 mission sorties as PIC and satisfactorily complete a CAPF 91, CAP Mission Pilot Checkout, IAW paragraph 3-9a. This check is valid for 24 months through the end of the month in which it was taken.
(3) Be designated in writing by the present Executive Director, region, or wing commander, or their designee.

Quote
Personal opinion, MPs should at least have UDF or GTM3 training prior to their rating. I've been on crews where we've landed at an airport because it was obvious it was on the field, and the MP wanted to taxi the plane around to do the triangulation, instead of taking a handheld and doing bodyblocks or using an L-per. Most MPs know how to do this, but it couldn't hurt for them to understand how working on the ground can give you a different prespective then being in the bird. Not a pro-GT rant, just an idea.
 

I'll agree here (at least UDF), and it's something I'd like to implement in my Wing.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 08:34:21 PM by Al Sayre » Report to moderator   Logged
Lt Col Al Sayre
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Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
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RiverAux
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2007, 10:07:43 PM »

Its going to be real hard to make it mandatory within your wing as from what I understand NHQ hasn't been very interested in approving any wing supplements to 60-3 lately.  In any case, I don't think UDF should be required, but would definetely agree that it should be recommended.  However, we have gotten in situations locally where the IC hasn't called out any ground teams because he figured the aircrew should be able to handle it, but as they weren't really qualified, weren't able to promptly complete the mission. 
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Fifinella
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Posts: 456
Unit: SWR-LA-001

« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2007, 10:19:50 PM »

Personal opinion, MPs should at least have UDF or GTM3 training prior to their rating. I've been on crews where we've landed at an airport because it was obvious it was on the field, and the MP wanted to taxi the plane around to do the triangulation, instead of taking a handheld and doing bodyblocks or using an L-per. Most MPs know how to do this, but it couldn't hurt for them to understand how working on the ground can give you a different prespective then being in the bird. Not a pro-GT rant, just an idea.

It is very useful for each "half", air and ground, to understand each other's task/situation.

As to abilities:
[rant]  Did a ground mission recently (training) with a plane to vector us in.  The pilot actually said, "I still can't see you, and I don't understand the clock positions you're giving me.  I don't see your signal mirror either, and I don't have a road map in the plane, so I don't understand the location you're telling me."  To which our cadet radio operator replied, "That's ok, Sir.  Just keep circling the target.  We see you, and we'll find it."  :D [/rant]
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Judy LaValley, Maj, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2007, 12:19:42 AM »

This points directly to the SET, either he was whipped or he wasn't.

Just because someone is high-speed, they shouldn't be penalized.

Do we want MP's who are just doing "the minimum", of course not, but what do you call a member who has completed the minimum requirements for MP as prescribed in the 60-dashes?

Mission Pilot.

If you have an issue, challenge the SET, and if you find a golden pen, file a complaint.
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bosshawk
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2007, 04:55:39 AM »

I agree with the comments that progress toward a MPS rating is an individual thing.  I have been a MPS for almost 14 years and am a MCP.  My personal experience was that I flew about four or five actual search missions in the seven months that it took me to become a MPS after joining CAP.  It helped that I was justs short of a thousand hours of PIC time at the time.  One search mission that I flew as a trainee had me in grid for almost 25 hours in three days: talk about taking a drink from a firehose.

That said, I have taken experienced, smart pilots from nothing to MPS in four sorties.  They were intense sorties, with lots of grid-type flying and very little straight and level.

These days, it is increasingly difficult to get training on funded missions, except SAREXs.  Seems that fewer folks are planting their favorite flying machines in hillsides than was the case when I joined.

Good thread, this one and certainly very germaine.
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Paul M. Reed
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SarDragon
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2007, 05:45:04 AM »

We just finished up a weekend flight clinic where the primary purpose was to get some classroom training and fly Form 5s and Form 91s, but we got in some good aircrew training, too. It was a funded mission, and everyone was happy with the results. I don't know how often these can be funded, but it's worth a try.

Quote from: bosshawk
Seems that fewer folks are planting their favorite flying machines in hillsides than was the case when I joined.

Possibly true, but there have been a few down here in SoCal in the past couple of years that have been so close to (or in) populated areas that a real search wasn't necessary.
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Dave Bowles
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Mission Pilot Training- How long should it take?
 


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