A hypothetical: suppose a Jewish cadet earned but refused to wear the Lindberrg?

[RNOfficer]

A hypothetical. Suppose a Jewish cadet earned, but refused to wear, the Lindbergh Award.

Charles Lindbergh was notorious for anti-Jewish statements. In particular those made in a speech at an America First rally at the Des Moines Coliseum on September 11, 1941, "Who Are the War Agitators?",

It is now two years since this latest European war began. From that day in September, 1939, until the present moment, there has been an over-increasing effort to force the United States into the conflict.

That effort has been carried on by foreign interests, and by a small minority of our own people; but it has been so successful that, today, our country stands on the verge of war.

.First, the British ......

The second major group I mentioned is the Jewish.

It is not difficult to understand why Jewish people desire the overthrow of Nazi Germany. The persecution they suffered in Germany would be sufficient to make bitter enemies of any race.

No person with a sense of the dignity of mankind can condone the persecution of the Jewish race in Germany. But no person of honesty and vision can look on their pro-war policy here today without seeing the dangers involved in such a policy both for us and for them. Instead of agitating for war, the Jewish groups in this country should be opposing it in every possible way for they will be among the first to feel its consequences.

Tolerance is a virtue that depends upon peace and strength. History shows that it cannot survive war and devastations. A few far-sighted Jewish people realize this and stand opposed to intervention. But the majority still do not.

Their greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio and our government.

I am not attacking either the Jewish or the British people. Both races, I admire. But I am saying that the leaders of both the British and the Jewish races, for reasons which are as understandable from their viewpoint as they are inadvisable from ours, for reasons which are not American, wish to involve us in the war.

We cannot blame them for looking out for what they believe to be their own interests, but we also must look out for ours. We cannot allow the natural passions and prejudices of other peoples to lead our country to destruction.

The Roosevelt administration is the third powerful group which has been carrying this country toward war.......

(Source: http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/speech.asp)

Lindbergh made numerous other well-documented anti-Jewish statements such as,

"We must limit to a reasonable amount the Jewish influence ... Whenever the Jewish percentage of total population becomes too high, a reaction seems to invariably occur. It is too bad because a few Jews of the right type are, I believe, an asset to any country."

But the Des Moines speech is regarded with particular distaste because it stated that American Jews put the interests of their religious compatriots in Europe ahead of the interests of the United States.

I've personally encountered antisemitism, some of it silly. Other, not. Including antisemitism in the CAP.

When I was at Quantico for USMC PLC in 1966, some fellow candidates examined my shaven head for bumps, indicating the vestigial horns that some thought Jews had (An old belief: Michelangelo's sculpture of Moses,portrays him with horns).

This old-fashioned racism was not so surprising, considering the first sociology textbook I read in college included details of an experiment where African-American men showered, then exercised, then were smelt while covered by a sheet to determine if their smell was any worse then that of similarly-exercised white men (it was the similar, of course).

Fortunately, I was a cadet before there was a Lindbergh Award so did not have to make the decision whether to wear an award honoring a man who accused Jews of treason.

[etodd]

I wasn't aware anyone was 'required' to wear any of the awards.

[DakRadz]

I wasn't aware anyone was 'required' to wear any of the awards.

11.1.1.1. Ribbons and devices are mandatory with the USAF-style Service Dress (Class A)
and USAF-style Semiformal uniforms, and optional with the USAF-style Blue Service Uniform (Class B)
and Corporate-style Aviator Shirt Uniforms


11.1.1.1.2. Cadets. Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar by
removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other
earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn

Emphasis mine. The only cadet required to wear the ribbon, per the regulation, are those for whom the Lindbergh is their highest award.

This question applies only to cadets in the grade of C/MSgt. Thus far, I have nothing more productive to add...

[Pace]

As with anything else, follow the manual.

CAPM 39-1 11.1.1.1 makes wear of ribbons on the Class B optional so simply remove all the ribbons. Once he has his next achievement, he can use the guidance in 11.1.1.1.2 to wear only his highest acheivement ribbon. Those are the options. He cannot pick and choose which achievement ribbons to wear: all, highest, or none.

DakRadz beat me to it...

[PHall]

I wasn't aware anyone was 'required' to wear any of the awards.

The rules for Cadets are different the the rules for Seniors.

[FW]

I had no problem wearing the Lindbergh ribbon when I was a cadet.  Then, at 14, I really didn't care about the names of the achievements.  I only cared about passing to the next one...

As far as the second part of your supposition; "stupid is as stupid does".  I never had time for petty ignorance, nor would I let such nonsense get the better of me.  Such was the positive nature of the Cadet Program.  It helped give me the strength to advance in spite of the obstacles placed before me.

YMMV! 

[NIN]

I was unaware the British were a race.  I suspect they are,  too.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[RNOfficer]

As far as the second part of your supposition; "stupid is as stupid does".  I never had time for petty ignorance, nor would I let such nonsense get the better of me.
YMMV!

Calling American Jews traitors is not "petty ignorance".

[Luis R. Ramos]

As a group, Lindbergh had a right to express his views. Or are you saying that Americans are to be denied their right to free expression based on what may be popular? If anyone expressed their views for or against war, that was their God-given American right. It is right there in the Constitution of the USA!

I am not saying Jews wanted to bring the US into war or not.

The truth of the matter is that was the only way to stop Hitler.

I am not Jewish, I am Hispanic and Catholic.

[Pace]

I suspect this will get itself locked by morning.

[Eclipse]

Suppose a Jewish cadet earned, but refused to wear, the Lindbergh Award.

As noted, it's possible a given cadet could go the cycle without ever wearing ribbons, and if he (with parental support)
didnbt' want to wear it, I would FIMO, and never mention it again to anyone, especially anyone else in the unit.

[Eclipse]

I wasn't aware anyone was 'required' to wear any of the awards.

The rules for Cadets are different the the rules for Seniors.

Not much any more - the latest version of 39-1 makes a lot of things mandatory for all if worn on the USAF styles,
though both cadets and seniors can short-stack, ribbons of some sort are required on the service coat, always have been.

[DakRadz]

I wasn't aware anyone was 'required' to wear any of the awards.

The rules for Cadets are different the the rules for Seniors.

Not much any more - the latest version of 39-1 makes a lot of things mandatory for all if worn on the USAF styles,
though both cadets and seniors can short-stack, ribbons of some sort are required on the service coat, always have been.

Technically, cadets are required to wear blues, leading to being required to wear ribbons (most will want them, and as mentioned, the service coat requires them)- wearas (okay, I did that on purpose) seniors could theoretically have a long and productive career in a polo shirt. (I don't want anything to do with a polo personally, or at least currently, but I respect that it is an option for many things.) The rules are different, doesn't have to be bad.
Also, shortstacking as a cadet is restricted, but as a senior carries only suggestions of what to short.

I suspect this will get itself locked by morning.

I'm just glad a mod stumbled into this early so it can be.... observed.

[Holding Pattern]

A hypothetical. Suppose a Jewish cadet earned, but refused to wear, the Lindbergh Award.

Charles Lindbergh was notorious for anti-Jewish statements. In particular those made in a speech at an America First rally at the Des Moines Coliseum on September 11, 1941, "Who Are the War Agitators?",

It is now two years since this latest European war began. From that day in September, 1939, until the present moment, there has been an over-increasing effort to force the United States into the conflict.

That effort has been carried on by foreign interests, and by a small minority of our own people; but it has been so successful that, today, our country stands on the verge of war.

.First, the British ......

The second major group I mentioned is the Jewish.

It is not difficult to understand why Jewish people desire the overthrow of Nazi Germany. The persecution they suffered in Germany would be sufficient to make bitter enemies of any race.

No person with a sense of the dignity of mankind can condone the persecution of the Jewish race in Germany. But no person of honesty and vision can look on their pro-war policy here today without seeing the dangers involved in such a policy both for us and for them. Instead of agitating for war, the Jewish groups in this country should be opposing it in every possible way for they will be among the first to feel its consequences.

Tolerance is a virtue that depends upon peace and strength. History shows that it cannot survive war and devastations. A few far-sighted Jewish people realize this and stand opposed to intervention. But the majority still do not.

Their greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio and our government.

I am not attacking either the Jewish or the British people. Both races, I admire. But I am saying that the leaders of both the British and the Jewish races, for reasons which are as understandable from their viewpoint as they are inadvisable from ours, for reasons which are not American, wish to involve us in the war.

We cannot blame them for looking out for what they believe to be their own interests, but we also must look out for ours. We cannot allow the natural passions and prejudices of other peoples to lead our country to destruction.

The Roosevelt administration is the third powerful group which has been carrying this country toward war.......

(Source: http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/speech.asp)

Lindbergh made numerous other well-documented anti-Jewish statements such as,

"We must limit to a reasonable amount the Jewish influence ... Whenever the Jewish percentage of total population becomes too high, a reaction seems to invariably occur. It is too bad because a few Jews of the right type are, I believe, an asset to any country."

But the Des Moines speech is regarded with particular distaste because it stated that American Jews put the interests of their religious compatriots in Europe ahead of the interests of the United States.

I've personally encountered antisemitism, some of it silly. Other, not. Including antisemitism in the CAP.

When I was at Quantico for USMC PLC in 1966, some fellow candidates examined my shaven head for bumps, indicating the vestigial horns that some thought Jews had (An old belief: Michelangelo's sculpture of Moses,portrays him with horns).

This old-fashioned racism was not so surprising, considering the first sociology textbook I read in college included details of an experiment where African-American men showered, then exercised, then were smelt while covered by a sheet to determine if their smell was any worse then that of similarly-exercised white men (it was the similar, of course).

Fortunately, I was a cadet before there was a Lindbergh Award so did not have to make the decision whether to wear an award honoring a man who accused Jews of treason.

This scenario was missing what position we are hypothetically in when we discover this. But if any cadet showed that great an interest in history to dig that deep into one of the names on an achievement, I'd make sure they pair up with the squadron historian!

[Spam]

I suspect this will get itself locked by morning.

Agreed. Respectfully request doing so now.

I fail to see the benefit to the program to initiate muckraking topics like this.

It contributes little, promotes divisive commentary rather than constructive engagement, and leads us into opposition rather than into cooperative, productive discussion.

V/R
Spam

[NIN]

Agreed. Respectfully request doing so now.

I fail to see the benefit to the program to initiate muckraking topics like this.

It contributes little, promotes divisive commentary rather than constructive engagement, and leads us into opposition rather than into cooperative, productive discussion.

Yep.

What next?

"What if a Jewish cadet refuses to ride in the squadron van because its a Ford and Henry Ford was a well-known anti-semite?"

Is there a faceplam icon?

Whatever.

[Pace]

I'm proud of you all. This didn't turn into a flame war and get locked (yet).

Look, if you really dig deep into our nation's history, you will find that many of our icons have colorful issues that are little-known today (read into Benjamin Franklin, for example). Kuddos to the cadet for learning his historical facts, but this *maybe* is a great time to teach him the life lesson of when to choose his battles and when to let it go. I am not Jewish and cannot relate to this issue, but if Benjamin O. Davis had been a well-known racist, I would still wear the leadership ribbon because it has more to do with my accomplishments, not the person it is named after.

Edit: I missed the hypothetical part in the title... I'm done.

[FW]

^My thoughts as well, however I am Jewish, and do relate to RNOfficer's remarks.  I just don't let the ignorance of bigotry bother me (much).  I think it is more important we just show bigotry and racism is not acceptable, and rebut with honest discussion based on reality.

BTW; Lindbergh was almost universally shunned after his AFC speech.  His request for recommission was refused by FDR, and except for his aviation contribution, marginalized as a "celebrity".

[Live2Learn]

FWIW, at least some reputable sources say that Lindbergh was himself victimized by a very effective propaganda machine operated by the British (who wanted the US to enter the war NOW!!) and by the FDR administration that was also striving to get into the war against Germany, Italy, and Japan.  Several of Lindbergh's documented speeches strongly supported offering material, but argued against sending troops.  This isn't unlike some of the contemporary reluctance to send troops to where ever.  For example, see this very well documented history of the lead up to WW2:  Lindbergh vs. Roosevelt: The Rivalry That Divided America.  As always, it's a good idea to look into the motivations of the players, the media, the politics of the time.  FWIW, this, and other sources describe some of the tactics used by the British propaganda machine in the 30's and through the war years, as well as in the years that led up to the US entry into WW1.  Those tactics were relevant to successful efforts at that time to discredit Lindbergh at the time, and in many contemporary histories.

While this discussion could easily spiral, it is valuable from a number of perspectives.  The efforts to re-write history in contemporary discussions may ignore the prevailing culture at the time.  While we have changed, our culture has changed, and our interpretation of history has changed with it, the fact remains that we are where we are now because of where we've been.  We should learn from our history rather than seek to whitewash it and revise it.  We should also be willing to question the conventional wisdom of those who wrote the history while living it.

[Holding Pattern]

I would still wear the leadership ribbon because it has more to do with my accomplishments, not the person it is named after.

I was trying to figure out the proper way of wording this. Thank you for doing so.