Do Senior Members without Grade wear epaulets on the corporate aviator shirt?

[Fubar]

You are perfectly fine wearing the polos at CAP.....unless your chain of command says "everyone in blues or gray and whites."  In which case you have to put them on....because thems the rules.

Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone is saying they show up at something in a polo even if the polo isn't allowed. Fortunately in my wing that's never an issue. I've only seen uniform restrictions twice, one when the polo was required for working a special multi-agency drill and once when we had an activity with Air Force pilots where we were told no flight suits (that only affected a couple of folks and I believe they all adhered to the UOD requirements).

I feel like for those of you that keep arguing we need a MBU just don't get that there are CAP environments where there is simply no need for a MBU. That means you're wasting a volunteer's money, and that's not good. I haven't needed anything but a polo to work at mission base, to fly, to attend training courses, or even get promoted. I haven't missed out on a single thing I wanted to do and I've been 100% compliant with the uniform rules and UOD set by the activity director, IC, or CC. Yet the rules say I have to buy a uniform that I'll never need and never wear. Talk about waste.

I got a aviator shirt from a pilot friend and some rank deals from someone who left cap. I just had to buy the name tag - but it's still wasted money.

[Майор Хаткевич]

or even get promoted.

Why even bother?

[lordmonar]

I agree...that there are times where the MBU is not needed or appropriate.

But to there are times where the Polo is not needed or appropriate either.

Since we want a basic uniform that everyone must possess....CAP decided that the MBU (USAF short sleeve blues or Gray and Whites) was decided upon.

That uniform is appropriate for 99% of the things CAP does.

Ergo....it is not a waste of money.

Now....you can argue that maybe the Polo and gray is a better MBU........all you got to do is make the suggestion up the chain to the NUC.

[Fubar]

or even get promoted.

Why even bother?

Why not? Got a hardy handshake at a monthly exercise and jokes about more zeros on the pay check. I did my 6 months, I didn't see any reason to fight the promotion.

[Fubar]

But to there are times where the Polo is not needed or appropriate either.

Then set a UOD for those rare instances and people who want to go will have to get the appropriate uniform. Just don't make everyone get a uniform for rare instances.

Since we want a basic uniform that everyone must possess....CAP decided that the MBU (USAF short sleeve blues or Gray and Whites) was decided upon.

I'm with you here. It may be time for CAP to reconsider what the MBU should be given the photographic evidence from around the country of what the member preference is. In fact, I bet they have vanguard sales information that shows it too.

That uniform is appropriate for 99% of the things CAP does.

So is the polo. In fact, especially when it comes to ES and interacting with outside agencies, it's more appropriate than the current MBU.

Ergo....it is not a waste of money.

The polo is cheaper and appropriate in at least one more instance than the MBU, so I'm leaning towards waste of money.

Now....you can argue that maybe the Polo and gray is a better MBU........all you got to do is make the suggestion up the chain to the NUC.

This is really a kind way of saying, "ha ha, you're screwed." Yes, the CAPM 39-1 says have a MBU, so I do. We both know I have a better chance of finding a unicorn crapping gold bricks than a proposal even reaching someone on the NUC. I still think it's wrong to force a volunteer to buy a uniform that they'll never need or wear. I get that it works out for Vanguard and maybe folks who hate the polo shirt get a warm feeling knowing they've made me buy something I don't want. I've just never heard of another organization that makes people buy clothes they don't need.

[Eclipse]

But to there are times where the Polo is not needed or appropriate either.

Then set a UOD for those rare instances and people who want to go will have to get the appropriate uniform. Just don't make everyone get a uniform for rare instances.

Define "rare instance".  We wear the MBU equivalent uniform for at least 1/2-3/4 of my unit meetings, and there's a UOD set for everything.

Also, "minimum" means the lowest, not the only.  Obviously if you have a long-sleeve version of the whites or blues, which requires a tie and is therefore
"more" then the minimum, you've met the mandate.  Trying to argue around that or inferring that increases the mandate for "1% or 1%" 
is just a silly attempt to "win the internet"  Good luck with that.

[lordmonar]

We do set the UOD for every CAP activity.

Sometimes Polos are allowed.  Sometimes the Gray and Whites are mandatory.

The white aviator shirt...while available from Vanguard does not have to be purchase from there.  So your suggesting it is just some "let's give some money to vanguard" conspiracy is not even close.

I will have to agree to disagree with you on the polo being more appropriate when working with outside agencies....but as I said before if you feel that way then send up your suggestion to the NUC.

Bottom line here........39-1 says Every member must own the MBU.   Anyone who does not is in violation.  Any commander who is telling their people they don't have buy it are in violation.

In my opinion it is not a waste of money.   If your wing is doing things right you will need the MBU for PD classes, conferences, working with cadets, and a lot more.  If your wing is not.......then THEY ARE DOING IT WRONG!  There I said it!

No amount of trying to justify anything else but requiring MBU is IGNORING the regulations.

While I agree there is a time and place for that......you always start from the stand point of "we are busting regs here....and this is why".

And you are wrong about member pushed ideas reaching the NUC.

I personally have had my suggestions make it up the chain and get accepted by the NUC.
I know that the NUC does in fact seek advice and ideas from the field.

I do know that if you don't try...then you will of course fail.

So.....fish or cut bait.

[/rant]

[Майор Хаткевич]

But to there are times where the Polo is not needed or appropriate either.

Then set a UOD for those rare instances and people who want to go will have to get the appropriate uniform. Just don't make everyone get a uniform for rare instances.

Define "rare instance".  We wear the MBU equivalent uniform for at least 1/2-3/4 of my unit meetings, and there's a UOD set for everything.

Also, "minimum" means the lowest, not the only.  Obviously if you have a long-sleeve version of the whites or blues, which requires a tie and is there
for "more" then the minimum, you've met the mandate.  Trying to argue around that is just trying to "win the internet"  Good luck with that.

Yea, but you're probably one of those non-prior service, promotion obsessed wannabe.









/S

[Storm Chaser]

I own the AF-style short sleeve and long sleeve service uniforms, service dress, mess dress, BDU, FDU, and corporate working uniform (polo) with gray trousers and cargo pants. Except for the mess dress and FDU, which I only wear on occasion, I wear all my uniforms frequently. I've found that, while I can wear the polo to most CAP functions, it's not always the most appropriate uniform.

Now, I don't disagree that, depending on the unit or wing, a member can get by with the polo most of the time. But to say that the aviator shirt is a waste of money is simply not true. There are plenty of activities and functions where the aviator shirt uniform is very appropriate, more so than the polo. Owning both the aviator shirt and polo would meet nearly 100% of a member's uniform needs. However, as it stands today, the aviator shirt meets the MBU requirement while the polo does not.

[lordmonar]

Now, I don't disagree that, depending on the unit or wing, a member can get by with the polo most of the time. But to say that the aviator shirt is a waste of money is simply not true. There are plenty of activities and functions where the aviator shirt uniform is very appropriate, more so than the polo. Owning both the aviator shirt and polo would meet nearly 100% of a member's uniform needs. However, as it stands today, the aviator shirt meets the MBU requirement while the polo does not.

99.9% of their needs.   There is that less than one percent for formal wear.   But you can always just wear civilian formal attire.

The point is while the polo can be worn at many CAP activities (both internal and external) the number of CAP activities where the MBU should not be worn are very little.    Sure going to ICS 300 and 400 where everyone else is in polos......there is no reason why we can't be in MBU.
In fact about the only places where the MBU is cannot be worn IMHO is where full service or formal dress is required.

[/rant]

[etodd]

I've been in the marketing biz for over 46 years and look at most everything through that prism as I ponder what CAP "Senior Squadrons" will look like in 10-20 years. I foresee a growing trend to be less military and leaning more toward the civilian part of the organization we are in many ways. It'll be needed to attract more "Seniors" in the future and certainly will help with retention.

Cadets are a whole different matter. I hope they keep going as is, in the similar ROTC tradition.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I've been in the marketing biz for over 46 years and look at most everything through that prism as I ponder what CAP "Senior Squadrons" will look like in 10-20 years. I foresee a growing trend to be less military and leaning more toward the civilian part of the organization we are in many ways. It'll be needed to attract more "Seniors" in the future and certainly will help with retention.

Seriously....Are you Radioman?

[etodd]

I don't know Radioman.

[Storm Chaser]

I've been in the marketing biz for over 46 years and look at most everything through that prism as I ponder what CAP "Senior Squadrons" will look like in 10-20 years. I foresee a growing trend to be less military and leaning more toward the civilian part of the organization we are in many ways. It'll be needed to attract more "Seniors" in the future and certainly will help with retention.

Seriously....Are you Radioman?

Come on, he's entitled to his opinion and has shared it without being disrespectful. And, who know? Maybe he's right. That's also been my experience with some senior squadrons.

[supertigerCH]

TIG to 2LT is 6 months. It isn't necessary for any member to buy that uniform in that timeframe.

Its very true a person could solve any of the uniform problems by just not wearing a uniform.  However, if we're going to resort to this as a solution... then why bother to make a rule at all...  saying that SMWOG must wear the empty epaulets?

If the "only 6 month" time frame (some members take longer than this) makes an issue not important enough... to pen policies that make the most sense... then why have any uniform rules in the first 6 months?  We could just issue uniforms to 2nd Lieutenants then (not that this is an idea that I'm pushing for... but this is where we can end up if we push this line of thinking all the way to its end result).

I must congratulate CAP overall though... on the fact that uniforms are much more professional & better looking now, than they have been in some years past.

Thanks for sharing all your ideas on this everyone.  good discussion, and much appreciated!

[Eclipse]

If you want to be promoted, you learn to wear your uniform properly during that 6 months, not buy it after.

[yuccakev]

Polo shirt? I don't play polo.

[HGjunkie]

Perhaps I can stand to be corrected, but as far as I know... no branch of the U.S. military does this (and although CAP is not the military...  even our "patron service" the Air Force... whom our uniforms are supposed to emulate... does not do anything like this "empty epaulet " on their uniforms -- even with officer candidates). 

West Point does this with their freshmen. They have completely blank shoulder marks until they become recognized right before sophomore year.

[Fubar]

In my opinion it is not a waste of money.   If your wing is doing things right you will need the MBU for PD classes, conferences, working with cadets, and a lot more.  If your wing is not.......then THEY ARE DOING IT WRONG!  There I said it!

I see your point, but here "wrong" is defined by your personal opinion and not any regulatory requirements by CAP. So the folks in charge around here have an opinion different than you, which makes the MBU a waste of money. If I worked for you at your squadron, then I'd either not be in CAP or wearing the MBU a heckava lot more.

Perhaps that will be the proposal I send up the chain, to make a minor change to CAPM 39-1 which already essentially says the polo shirt is equivalent to the MBU (I've bolded the change):

The Corporate Working Uniform may be worn in a flying, field or mission setting or meetings and training courses when the USAF-style Class B or Corporate Aviator Shirt Uniform would be worn.

There's your 99%. Perhaps if I mention I know lordmonar the NUC will read the proposed change

[lordmonar]

No wrong is defined by the regulations.