Mission cost

[maxd200]

I have been in CAP for a while now and how much do you think a mission person mission cost. Also do people who get saved be CAP have to pay for us to come out. The cost was just something that came to my mind earlier so I thought maby someone here would know. Have a nice day

[Holding Pattern]

I have been in CAP for a while now and how much do you think a mission person mission cost. Also do people who get saved be CAP have to pay for us to come out. The cost was just something that came to my mind earlier so I thought maby someone here would know. Have a nice day

No one has ever paid CAP for a rescue. Many, however, have made large donations to CAP after being rescued, or their families have.

The last statistical data I saw put CAP flight hours at $120/hour.

We aren't doing this to get paid. If I want to get paid for this, I'll join the department of emergency management or the Sheriff's office.

[maxd200]

I knew we did not get paid but thanks for the reply.

[RogueLeader]

It all really depends on the search.  Areas that are dense take a long time to search compared to low density  terrain, expertise/training/equipment can widely alter mission duration, if the person wants to be found/ does NOT want to be found. Age/injuries/medical issues can widely vary the mission duration.  The different assets used- a C172 burns less gas per hour than a C206 turbo.

The long story, short is that there are too many variables to give an even remotely accurate guess; unless you were wanting an "average"- for which I haven't even a guess as to what "average" may even be.

[etodd]

.... how much do you think a mission person mission cost.

I'm figuring much less than 1% of what it would cost the Air Force to do.

[Paul Creed III]

.... how much do you think a mission person mission cost.

I'm figuring much less than 1% of what it would cost the Air Force to do.

A C-130 burns through $5,000+ an hour.

[Flying Pig]

Yeah, probably per engine!

[Spam]

Cost per flight hour is highly variable per unit, and dependent on a number of organizational and OPTEMPO factors, as well as equipment logistical costs (maintaining older models vs. newer ones, etc.). So, a C-130 is not a C-130 is not a C-130. Years ago, when I had to do project budgets for flight test, I had to budget over 30K/h for KC-130 tanker support (which was a fully burdened rate for my test wing command, and waaaay on the high end back in those days).

See: http://afcommission.whs.mil/public/docs/meetings/20130626/Cost%20of%20Flying%20Units%20in%20Air%20Force%20Active%20and%20Reserve%20Components%20-%20Albert%20Robbert%20-%20RAND.pdf

For USAF C-130s, see Figure B.6, quoting between roughly 16 - 30K/hour, variable by the unit (Active USAF/ANG/Reserve).

These sorts of discussions can be political dynamite, once people start looking at (for example) CPFH for F-35s vs. the platforms they're replacing, when the new program was sold to us partly on the basis of lower costs.

V/R
Spam

[Spaceman3750]

Who's doing SAR in a C-130? At least in CONUS. That's kind of like asking Delta to launch a 737 in support of a missing person SAR.

[Garibaldi]

Who's doing SAR in a C-130? At least in CONUS. That's kind of like asking Delta to launch a 737 in support of a missing person SAR.

Combat SAR is done either in a C-130 or a CH-53. AFRCC has a lot of aircraft designated for SAR, but as far as civil SAR, we're it.

[Spam]

Respectfully, Garibaldi,

there really are many other people flying civil SAR in CONUS.  Sherriff, DNR/forestry, Customs, USCG, the list is long. Some of them are far better equipped and skilled than us, with nogs and FLIR, some are less. For a missing person search, a state/local helo with FLIR is the number one SAR asset I would call, after which dog teams, before I would even think about using a CAP aircraft.

USCG flies HC-130s, J model is the new one, and USAF flies them too, both for CONUS civil SAR. The unit at Moody AFB, GA, for example flies civil SAR in a backup role.

Combat SAR platforms include HC-130 (I arranged O flights in one at our encampment last year), the HH-60, the CV-22, the A-10, etc.

V/R
Spam

[Garibaldi]

Respectfully, Garibaldi,

there really are many other people flying civil SAR in CONUS.  Sherriff, DNR/forestry, Customs, USCG, the list is long. Some of them are far better equipped and skilled than us, with nogs and FLIR, some are less. For a missing person search, a state/local helo with FLIR is the number one SAR asset I would call, after which dog teams, before I would even think about using a CAP aircraft.

USCG flies HC-130s, J model is the new one, and USAF flies them too, both for CONUS civil SAR. The unit at Moody AFB, GA, for example flies civil SAR in a backup role.

Combat SAR platforms include HC-130 (I arranged O flights in one at our encampment last year), the HH-60, the CV-22, the A-10, etc.

V/R
Spam

I should have said ELECTRONIC SAR. Everyone and their brother can do urban and wilderness foot-searches, including us, but they don't do electronic DFing, so far as I know.

And yes, I defer to you regarding the military's SAR vehicle of choice.

P.S. Don't mention the A-10, since there are some sad, misguided individuals who were CONVINCED we were getting them to replace the 172s.

[lordmonar]

CAP does not have a monopoly on DFing equipment.

And those other agencies certainly can do electronic SAR.

[Flying Pig]

There are loads of LE agencies who have DF equipment in their aircraft.  At my last agency we used to head out and DF ELTs and were several hours ahead of CAP in response time.  Being a CAP member, I would head out and as soon as I knew CAP was in bound I was pass it off.  No need burning county gas if CAP is on it.   I can recall 2-3 times I was on an LE mission, and heard an ELT on one of my many radios and just started DF'ing immediately.  Either that or a controller would ask us to see what we could do. 

[LSThiker]

Who's doing SAR in a C-130? At least in CONUS. That's kind of like asking Delta to launch a 737 in support of a missing person SAR.

The US Coast Guard does with a HC-130H and HC-130J.  Saw one the other day in fact.

Also, asking an airline to do SAR has happened:
http://news.discovery.com/human/air-candaa-flight-finds-lost-boat-dnews-nugget-121019.htm

The Cessna 188 Pacific rescue with an Air New Zealand with a DC-10

[Garibaldi]

There are loads of LE agencies who have DF equipment in their aircraft.  At my last agency we used to head out and DF ELTs and were several hours ahead of CAP in response time.  Being a CAP member, I would head out and as soon as I knew CAP was in bound I was pass it off.  No need burning county gas if CAP is on it.   I can recall 2-3 times I was on an LE mission, and heard an ELT on one of my many radios and just started DF'ing immediately.  Either that or a controller would ask us to see what we could do.

FINE! WHATEVER! I'M WRONG AS ALWAYS!!!

*stomps off in a huff*

[Spam]

Ah, Kevin... you know we love ya. 

If the Coast Guard didn't have electronic search capability, then why do boats have EPIRBs? Answer:  of course USCG does, as well as many other agencies, plus FLIR, plus NVGs, plus multiple visual spectrum observer capabilities. 

We (CAP) are at the low end of the high/low capability mix. Like comparing spec ops to leg infantry, the F-22 to Block 30 Vipers, or Tico Cruisers to Perry class Frigates, all are needed in the mix to ensure that we have high end niche capability coupled with cost efficient low end surge capability.

The problems occur when we start tasking the expensive niche guys beyond what we can afford, and when the attractively priced volunteer low end assets are used for nearly everything when we really need to get the specialists in (e.g. missing person SAR - call for FLIR, dog teams, and clue conscious searchers, ALWAYS, before line searching the woods and obscuring sign/scent).


V/R
Spam

[FW]

I have been in CAP for a while now and how much do you think a mission person mission cost. Also do people who get saved be CAP have to pay for us to come out. The cost was just something that came to my mind earlier so I thought maby someone here would know. Have a nice day

CAP does have figures on this, and if I was more energetic, I would find them for you.  If my brain cells are still working, though, I think we calculated $11/hr per man hour for labor plus cost of aircraft@ $150hr plus cost of any other expenses (coffee, donuts...) 
Just plug in the variables and go....

BTW; we've never "billed" the ones we've saved or found; even the ones we didn't...

[Flying Pig]

There are loads of LE agencies who have DF equipment in their aircraft.  At my last agency we used to head out and DF ELTs and were several hours ahead of CAP in response time.  Being a CAP member, I would head out and as soon as I knew CAP was in bound I was pass it off.  No need burning county gas if CAP is on it.   I can recall 2-3 times I was on an LE mission, and heard an ELT on one of my many radios and just started DF'ing immediately.  Either that or a controller would ask us to see what we could do.

FINE! WHATEVER! I'M WRONG AS ALWAYS!!!

*stomps off in a huff*

Good news is, you are right about that

[lordmonar]

Who's doing SAR in a C-130? At least in CONUS. That's kind of like asking Delta to launch a 737 in support of a missing person SAR.

But that's what the USAF uses as its standard SAR platform.

It is why the USAF gives CAP millions of dollars every year.....so they don't have to launch a C-130 all the time.