CAP and NASAR Working Group

[DesertRat]

I am new around CAP TALK, but I want you all to know that I have been given an unofficial task of taking NASAR and CAP qualification lists/tasks and presenting a report to NASAR bosses. Of course, we know that CAP and NASAR are not recognized by every state's ES office, and the states have that right. But as two national groups, CAP and NASAR can at least present a united front where we recognize and know each others' programs.

This one is in the works right now.

[DesertRat]

There is another piece of the ES puzzle we need to realize when it comes to qualifications. CAP is a federal resource, and the states do recognize it as such. For example, New Mexico does not recognize CAP GT quals. If a local sheriff calls the state for help in a search, only state certified teams are called up. (NM has its own tests for this.) But if it is bigger, and they need our support (of any kind) at that point, all our qauls DO count, because once that call in the Feds, they have to accept what the Feds send in; and they don't get to pick and choose, we want airplanes, but not ground teams, New Mexico teams, but not teams from Texas; CAP decides where to draw resources from.

It is a complex web of egos, regulations, egos, procedures, and mostly egos.

But often our GT's are not called up, specifically because we are a Federal resource, and that takes two things to spool up; time, and the locals swallowing their pride and asking for help.

[THRAWN]

There is another piece of the ES puzzle we need to realize when it comes to qualifications. CAP is a federal resource, and the states do recognize it as such. For example, New Mexico does not recognize CAP GT quals. If a local sheriff calls the state for help in a search, only state certified teams are called up. (NM has its own tests for this.) But if it is bigger, and they need our support (of any kind) at that point, all our qauls DO count, because once that call in the Feds, they have to accept what the Feds send in; and they don't get to pick and choose, we want airplanes, but not ground teams, New Mexico teams, but not teams from Texas; CAP decides where to draw resources from.

It is a complex web of egos, regulations, egos, procedures, and mostly egos.

But often our GT's are not called up, specifically because we are a Federal resource, and that takes two things to spool up; time, and the locals swallowing their pride and asking for help.

It's actually a complex web of that lousy US Constitution getting in the way again and the pile of local, state and federal laws that govern mutual aid and emergency response. It's got nothing to do with ego or swallowing or ego...you're making an inference as to the competence of local response officials and how they use CAP. A lot of time it has to do with the lack of professional competence of the resources that CAP has on hand or sends in for other areas.

[THRAWN]

I am new around CAP TALK, but I want you all to know that I have been given an unofficial task of taking NASAR and CAP qualification lists/tasks and presenting a report to NASAR bosses. Of course, we know that CAP and NASAR are not recognized by every state's ES office, and the states have that right. But as two national groups, CAP and NASAR can at least present a united front where we recognize and know each others' programs.

This one is in the works right now.

Hasn't this been done a few times already? That's how the MOU came about if I remember correctly...

[Spaceman3750]

There is another piece of the ES puzzle we need to realize when it comes to qualifications. CAP is a federal resource, and the states do recognize it as such. For example, New Mexico does not recognize CAP GT quals. If a local sheriff calls the state for help in a search, only state certified teams are called up. (NM has its own tests for this.) But if it is bigger, and they need our support (of any kind) at that point, all our qauls DO count, because once that call in the Feds, they have to accept what the Feds send in; and they don't get to pick and choose, we want airplanes, but not ground teams, New Mexico teams, but not teams from Texas; CAP decides where to draw resources from.

It is a complex web of egos, regulations, egos, procedures, and mostly egos.

But often our GT's are not called up, specifically because we are a Federal resource, and that takes two things to spool up; time, and the locals swallowing their pride and asking for help.

It's actually a complex web of that lousy US Constitution getting in the way again and the pile of local, state and federal laws that govern mutual aid and emergency response. It's got nothing to do with ego or swallowing or ego...you're making an inference as to the competence of local response officials and how they use CAP. A lot of time it has to do with the lack of professional competence of the resources that CAP has on hand or sends in for other areas.

Or maybe both? Or maybe it's an issue with the local relationships? Try not to be too quick to poo-poo on ourselves. I realize that there are localized issues but I think every agency has their issues with problem children, not just CAP.

[DesertRat]

The simplest answer is that State's borders are not be violated until they ask, and we are a Federal resource. When it comes to egos, at least here in NM, it is a huge problem. The locals don't want to call up for help; our response form the county ES boss was "We don't need SAR teams, nobody gets lost around here." The two deputies who have oversight of missing persons (non-criminal) have ZERO SAR training; they have told me themselves. This is an ego problem, not a paperwork problem.

I hope other states/jurisdictions have their wheels rolling better than we do here.

[THRAWN]

Lots of states have good relations with their CAP wings. Some even consider them as a part of the DMAVA or MILDEP. You're always going to run into that "one county" where the sheriff thinks that he was born of the burning bush.

Take a look at this before you start reinventing the wheel: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/NHQ_NATLASSNFORSARINC_2013_1D09553D931C3.pdf

[Spaceman3750]

The simplest answer is that State's borders are not be violated until they ask, and we are a Federal resource. When it comes to egos, at least here in NM, it is a huge problem. The locals don't want to call up for help; our response form the county ES boss was "We don't need SAR teams, nobody gets lost around here." The two deputies who have oversight of missing persons (non-criminal) have ZERO SAR training; they have told me themselves. This is an ego problem, not a paperwork problem.

I hope other states/jurisdictions have their wheels rolling better than we do here.

It probably wouldn't help in this scenario, but we don't have to be a federal resource. My understanding is that the NOC can set up a C mission for customer-funded SAR, independent of AFRCC. Then we're acting as a non-profit and not as a government instrumentality. Then they just don't get AF funding, so any flight time, vehicle fuel, per diem, etc is on them. Also CAP corporate insurance for the members instead of FTCA/FECA, plus whatever the local agency extends.

[DesertRat]

Thanks. I'll look into that, because insurance coverage seems to be a massive sticking point in some of these questions.

[Spaceman3750]

Thanks. I'll look into that, because insurance coverage seems to be a massive sticking point in some of these questions.

The insurance is better as an AFAM. Federal Tort Claims Act liability protection, Federal Employee Compensation Act to cover members in case of a disabling injury. A C mission just gets you CAP, Inc. liability coverage.

For SAR, AFAM should be plan A, with a C-misison plan B if AFRCC were to deny the mission for some reason, but I suppose you could make it work if a local personality just doesn't play nice with "dem feds up there".

[FW]

There should not be problems for CAP assets working with state or local governments.  Insurance is the least of our worries.  AFAM status can be granted to a local mission if requested thru the NOC.  Funding can be thru AF or Customer ("C" mission status means "Corporate" not Customer; "B" mission status is AF Unfunded AFAM. 

Actually, though, I'm not that surprised some wings are having problems working with local officials.  We still seem to be having problems educating our own with working well with others...

[DesertRat]

Who has to make that request through NOC? Can the squadron commander or does it have to come through state resource/ ES?

[Spaceman3750]

Who has to make that request through NOC? Can the squadron commander or does it have to come through state resource/ ES?

The requesting agency has to make the call.

[ALORD]

There is another piece of the ES puzzle we need to realize when it comes to qualifications. CAP is a federal resource, and the states do recognize it as such. For example, New Mexico does not recognize CAP GT quals. If a local sheriff calls the state for help in a search, only state certified teams are called up. (NM has its own tests for this.) But if it is bigger, and they need our support (of any kind) at that point, all our qauls DO count, because once that call in the Feds, they have to accept what the Feds send in; and they don't get to pick and choose, we want airplanes, but not ground teams, New Mexico teams, but not teams from Texas; CAP decides where to draw resources from.

It is a complex web of egos, regulations, egos, procedures, and mostly egos.

But often our GT's are not called up, specifically because we are a Federal resource, and that takes two things to spool up; time, and the locals swallowing their pride and asking for help.

It's actually a complex web of that lousy US Constitution getting in the way again and the pile of local, state and federal laws that govern mutual aid and emergency response. It's got nothing to do with ego or swallowing or ego...you're making an inference as to the competence of local response officials and how they use CAP. A lot of time it has to do with the lack of professional competence of the resources that CAP has on hand or sends in for other areas.

U.S. Constitution? Oh, we don't do that anymore...we just sort of have "guidelines" and "penumbras" and "executive orders" now.

[lordmonar]

Who has to make that request through NOC? Can the squadron commander or does it have to come through state resource/ ES?

The requesting agency has to make the call.

AND.....it helps if you have an existing MOU with the agency to work our who is going to pay for it.

The bottom line is that wings/groups/units have to work with their local agencies to work out these issues before they really need help.
To the OP......yes by all means it would be helpful if CAP and NASAR were on the same page and recognized each others certifications.  That at least helps our case when making those contacts at the local level.

[Spaceman3750]

Thanks. I'll look into that, because insurance coverage seems to be a massive sticking point in some of these questions.

The insurance is better as an AFAM. Federal Tort Claims Act liability protection, Federal Employee Compensation Act to cover members in case of a disabling injury. A C mission just gets you CAP, Inc. liability coverage.

For SAR, AFAM should be plan A, with a C-mission plan B if AFRCC were to deny the mission for some reason, but I suppose you could make it work if a local personality just doesn't play nice with "dem feds up there".

[sardak]

Let's put some perspective on this.
In the last 15 months, only two wings had more calls for assistance with missing person searches than New Mexico Wing, and 25 wings had no missing person missions. NMWG had more missing person air sorties than any other wing, but 10 wings had more ground sorties.

Obviously, NM SAR authorities were more interested in air support from NMWG than ground support. That support all came on A missions as "federal resources." The same place NM SAR authorities called to get the air support is the same place they would call to get ground teams as a federal resource - AFRCC.

To get a C mission, the SAR authority calls the NOC instead of AFRCC. Both have an 800 phone number, but it usually (not always) takes more time to get a corporate C mission than a federal A mission. As mentioned, the locals will have to pay for a C mission (unless the wing eats the cost) whereas an A mission will be at no charge to the locals.  It also takes written follow-up (not just a phone call) to get a C mission.

Bottom line is that it's really easier and faster to get an A (federal) mission than a C mission, and takes very little time. The fact that NM SAR authorities get aircraft as a  federal resource shows that being a federal resource isn't the reason for not using CAP ground teams.

There may be a real or perceived problem in the time it takes the CAP ground teams to mobilize once the mission is authorized. Are there enough CAP ground teams to support calls to assist? Here is where politics come into the picture. This also begs the question of why don't the CAP ground teams train to the NM SAR standards?

As for an MOU, every state 48 of the 50 states* have an MOA with 1AF and an MOU with AFRCC. The MOU defines who AFRCC will call, or who may call AFRCC, for ELT, PLB, missing person and missing aircraft missions. How CAP fits into a state's MOU varies. As a former AFRCC commander said, "Once you've seen SAR in one state, you've seen SAR in one state."

Regarding NASAR, I was the NASAR SAR Standards Liaison for a number of years, have some background on the current NASAR-CAP MOU, and did some work on the "cross-walk" between CAP and NASAR. PM me.

Mike

*Hawaii and Alaska don't operate under AFRCC

[RiverAux]

Desertrat,
I'm wondering who gave you this "unofficial" task.  It just seems that you're a little uninformed on the basics for someone to be representing CAP at a national level. 

[isuhawkeye]

Every state has its own MOU on file with AFRCC.  The states work out who can make a request for support.