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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Stolen Valor Confrontation
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Author Topic: Stolen Valor Confrontation  (Read 13587 times)
JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,175

« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2016, 08:44:20 PM »

You may not be able to do anything. I believe our current president signed into law in 2013 that wearing a uniform with no prior service isn't illegal, but lying about it for benefits is.
That's not how it happened.

The Stolen Valor Act was challenged in court.  The Supreme Court ruled that lying is a protected under the 1st Amendment, and as such, the law was not valid.  Lying for fraudulent reasons (ie. to seek monetary benefit) can be criminalized, however, just puffing your chest out cannot be made a crime.

That said, as in almost all Free Speech issues, the way to counter "bad speech" (lying about accomplishments) is with "good speech" (ie. calling them on it).  CAP is a private organization, and we as an organization have every right to apply our disciplinary procedures (ie 2B) to someone who has lied as we deem appropriate, as the 1st Amendment applies to governments only.
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Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,043

« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2016, 09:07:45 PM »

.........and 99.9% of the time, its best to just laugh and walk away if you run into these people in public.  Seriously, if you don't have anything to do with it, if the person is just bragging... move on.  I don't normally advocate "not doing anything" but most of the time these people are either dealing with mental issues or just looking for attention.
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AirAux
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 743

« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2016, 09:28:22 PM »

JeffDG, I am confused in what you mean by, "as the 1st Amendment applies to governments only."  Are you saying that it would not apply to CAP if we tried to punish someone for stolen valor?  CAP falls under the Air Force, which in itself is a Federal entity.  I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.  I may have mistaken your statement.
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JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,175

« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2016, 09:50:12 PM »

JeffDG, I am confused in what you mean by, "as the 1st Amendment applies to governments only."  Are you saying that it would not apply to CAP if we tried to punish someone for stolen valor?  CAP falls under the Air Force, which in itself is a Federal entity.  I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.  I may have mistaken your statement.
CAP is a private corporate entity.  The fact that we receive federal funding does not make us a government entity.

Stolen Valor would certainly be, in my opinion, a serious violation of our core value of integrity, and CAP is entirely entitled to remove such an individual from our membership rolls.
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AirAux
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 743

« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2016, 10:19:43 PM »

Considering that the Supreme Court classifies it as free speech, I think we would be treading on thin ice.  At one time, homosexuality was considered immoral, but because of the Supreme Court and legislation, we can not throw anyone out for immorality anymore.  I would suggest the same applies to stolen valor and flag desecration, would it not??
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vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 271

« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2016, 10:28:50 PM »

Nope, not analogous. "Morality" is not a core value. Stolen valor and flag desecration are matters of integrity and respect.
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RogueLeader
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,621
Unit: NM-823

« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2016, 10:32:12 PM »

The government can not do anything as it is free speech.  As CAP is a Private Organization, we can and do make members non-members.  I could (I won't) call me Wing/CC a bunch of names so on and so forth ( it might even be true), and he would be right to through me out of CAP for insubordination.  Same thing if someone did that to me.

We most certainly can kick people out for lying about what they have done, as it goes against our Core Values.  Depending on the severity of the issue, we certainly should.
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GRW 3340
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,672

« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2016, 11:06:23 PM »

Considering that the Supreme Court classifies it as free speech, I think we would be treading on thin ice.  At one time, homosexuality was considered immoral, but because of the Supreme Court and legislation, we can not throw anyone out for immorality anymore.  I would suggest the same applies to stolen valor and flag desecration, would it not??
A)  Yes we can still throw people our for immorality......actually it is termed Moral Turpitude.
B)  While free speech is protected by the 1st Amendment....CAP is not bound by it....if you call your commander a Dip Sh*t, even if true, you can be punished for it.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,175

« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2016, 11:07:20 PM »

Considering that the Supreme Court classifies it as free speech, I think we would be treading on thin ice.  At one time, homosexuality was considered immoral, but because of the Supreme Court and legislation, we can not throw anyone out for immorality anymore.  I would suggest the same applies to stolen valor and flag desecration, would it not??
Because the SC defines it as free speech, the GOVERNMENT cannot punish you for it.  CAP is a private organization and most certainly can.

Take another example:

You walk into an FBI office and call the SAC a lying sack of excrement.  He cannot arrest you for doing so at all.  It's a freedom of speech issue, and the FBI cannot punish (arrest) you for exercising your right to free speech, regardless of how abhorrent it is.

Walk into your squadron commander's office and say the same thing, and you can be 2B's before you get out of the room.
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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,320
Unit: Worry

« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2016, 12:40:59 AM »

JeffDG, I am confused in what you mean by, "as the 1st Amendment applies to governments only."  Are you saying that it would not apply to CAP if we tried to punish someone for stolen valor?  CAP falls under the Air Force, which in itself is a Federal entity.  I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.  I may have mistaken your statement.
CAP is a private corporate entity.  The fact that we receive federal funding does not make us a government entity.

How about being an instrumentality of the United States?

 ;D
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,672

« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2016, 12:42:23 AM »

JeffDG, I am confused in what you mean by, "as the 1st Amendment applies to governments only."  Are you saying that it would not apply to CAP if we tried to punish someone for stolen valor?  CAP falls under the Air Force, which in itself is a Federal entity.  I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.  I may have mistaken your statement.
CAP is a private corporate entity.  The fact that we receive federal funding does not make us a government entity.

How about being an instrumentality of the United States?

 ;D
So...on AFAMs we can't discriminate....:)
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,175

« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2016, 12:48:14 AM »

JeffDG, I am confused in what you mean by, "as the 1st Amendment applies to governments only."  Are you saying that it would not apply to CAP if we tried to punish someone for stolen valor?  CAP falls under the Air Force, which in itself is a Federal entity.  I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.  I may have mistaken your statement.
CAP is a private corporate entity.  The fact that we receive federal funding does not make us a government entity.

How about being an instrumentality of the United States?

 ;D
Well, I guess, if you do it WHILE in the middle of an AFAM, then they would need to wait until signed out of the AFAM and back to being a regular corporation.
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raivo
Seasoned Member

Posts: 442
Unit: Migrant

« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2016, 05:10:56 AM »

.........and 99.9% of the time, its best to just laugh and walk away if you run into these people in public.  Seriously, if you don't have anything to do with it, if the person is just bragging... move on.  I don't normally advocate "not doing anything" but most of the time these people are either dealing with mental issues or just looking for attention.

Agreed. The indignation over "stolen valor" borders on self-righteousness at times... and occasionally the people getting called out for it, are being falsely accused.
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1Lt, CAP
Capt, USAF
Recipient of a Mitchell Award Of Irrelevant Number

"No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever survived combat."
Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,043

« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2016, 11:48:56 AM »

Lying about your record can very much determine what happens to you as a CAP member, as well as any other organization.  It has nothing to do with free speech.  As far as raivos comment, yes, many of the stolen valor videos you watch, I almost find the people doing the confronting more irritating than the foolio wearing the fake medals.  And often times, a slight amount of situational awareness would tell you the person wearing the medals isnt "all there".  There is one recently where its pretty obvious the "suspect" has some serious disabilities, but the person making the video just keeps going and going and going.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,428

« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2016, 03:04:08 PM »

Lying about your record can very much determine what happens to you as a CAP member, as well as any other organization.  It has nothing to do with free speech.  As far as raivos comment, yes, many of the stolen valor videos you watch, I almost find the people doing the confronting more irritating than the foolio wearing the fake medals.  And often times, a slight amount of situational awareness would tell you the person wearing the medals isnt "all there".  There is one recently where its pretty obvious the "suspect" has some serious disabilities, but the person making the video just keeps going and going and going.

Probably because the guy was an easy mark who wouldn't fight back. Cowards like that.
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USACAP
Forum Regular

Posts: 101
Unit: MV0181

« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2016, 11:04:25 PM »

Wait, what?
I would not serve along side anyone lying about their service.
Absolutely not.

I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,428

« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2016, 12:18:53 AM »

Wait, what?
I would not serve along side anyone lying about their service.
Absolutely not.

I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.

Then you better resign your CAP membership then. Because they're out there... >:D
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ALORD
Member

Posts: 73
Unit: PCR-CA-123

« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2016, 10:53:03 AM »

As a licensed P.I., I have a branch office in Southern California ( Managed and owned by my brothers) They conduct pre-employment screening, which for legal reasons, is called "application verification"  The Fair Credit Reporting Act complicates this kind of thing, and a work product that is deemed as a "Consumer Report" allows the subject access. Some Agencies require a Licensed P.I. to conduct background checks far in excess of "application verification" ( Officers of Banks, Bonded personnel, etc) Overwhelmingly, in my experience the fraudulent applicant will identify as a former SEAL. I guess if you are going to tell a self-aggrandizing lie, go for the gold. Counterfeit DD214's are available on the Internet, and getting verifications of anyone's military history can be a challenge. Fortunately, every Special Operation Group will have particular information that an imposter will not have an answer for: ( Who was your BUDS swim buddy? What was your Ranger Class number, what was that SMG Charlie Sheen had in "Navy Seals"...okay, I made that last one up...) I have found that many Elite Unit Org's will maintain files on known pretenders, and a couple of phone calls to the group can tell you if a person is a problem child. Every single one I  have encountered has been mentally ill, not conducting fraud for profit, although I know that they exist too. Harder to disprove in alleged military members attached to an organization is non-qualified support staff. Even Ninjas needs someone who can fill out forms properly, and a person saying " I was attached to the ( fill in the blank) Ranger Battalion may not exactly be lying; just spinning the truth. One SEAL suggested if in doubt, try to snatch a suspicious SEAL's Budweiser. If you wake up with your arm missing, it may have been a real special operator! Some of these people can be very dangerous to confront, and its an argument you can't really win. Turn them over to their respective used-to-be clubs and they will handle it about as well as it can be handled.
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Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,043

« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2016, 05:46:00 PM »

The JFK Special Warfare Center maintains a decent data base as well.  And if anyone tells you that you'll never find a record of their training, just laugh.  I was doing a criminal investigation and was able to call the JFK Special Warfare Center as well as Navy dive school in Pensacola and Key West and over the phone they verified the person had never attended.  If being a special forces guy was a secret, they wouldn't wear badges and patches.  And especially beware if a pilot tells you he was trained independent from a traditional military flight school.
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Garibaldi
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,323
Unit: SER-GA-045

Sandy Springs Cadet Squadron
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2016, 05:53:46 PM »

I've heard it said that those who really have BTDT don't need to advertise.
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You can't take the sky from me. Also, I can kill you with my brain. No power in the 'verse can stop me.
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Stolen Valor Confrontation
 


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