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Garibaldi
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« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2015, 05:51:05 PM »

None of the above. You need one of the Icoms. They operate on military frequencies and from what I've been able to find, no one makes a radio for general use that operates on those frequencies. The ISRs were initially developed as a stop gap measure for the Marines. The military has since replaced them with more rugged, higher capability, multi-band units. The ISRs have been out of production for several years now.

Thanks, that is helpful to know. If that is the case, are there multiple types of ICOM radios that will work with our frequencies? I am simply looking to purchase an ICOM for myself for use within CAP, on search and rescue, encampment etc. hopefully that is a little more rugged than the CAP standard ICOMs.

Nope. The ISRs operate on military channels, and there's nothing out there that will operate on those channels that's legal for CAP use.

Alright, I might be beating a dead horse here, and if I am I apologize, I'm just trying to make sure I get the right information.

So the only way to communicate with other ICOM ISRs is to have an ICOM ISR? Are there any other radios that can talk to the CAP ISRs? If they would need to be programmed with encryption I could make that happen, I just need to know if there are any other radios that can do that.

Thanks for putting up with my stupid questions.

Ummmmm......

ISR frequencies are not encrypted. If you are lucky, you can find a hand-held like Vertec or Yaesu, AND if you can obtain a list of frequencies for ISR, AND the radio doesn't require a lot of fidgy-widginess to allow other frequencies to be used (There is a simple way to re-program the Yaseu FT-50R, which was a 30th birthday present. I can't tell you how, but it was altered to allow other frequencies to be used. Google it.), THEN you can probably use it in place of an ISR. I am NOT condoning this.

But it can be done.
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arajca
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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2015, 06:38:49 PM »

None of the above. You need one of the Icoms. They operate on military frequencies and from what I've been able to find, no one makes a radio for general use that operates on those frequencies. The ISRs were initially developed as a stop gap measure for the Marines. The military has since replaced them with more rugged, higher capability, multi-band units. The ISRs have been out of production for several years now.

Thanks, that is helpful to know. If that is the case, are there multiple types of ICOM radios that will work with our frequencies? I am simply looking to purchase an ICOM for myself for use within CAP, on search and rescue, encampment etc. hopefully that is a little more rugged than the CAP standard ICOMs.

Nope. The ISRs operate on military channels, and there's nothing out there that will operate on those channels that's legal for CAP use.

Alright, I might be beating a dead horse here, and if I am I apologize, I'm just trying to make sure I get the right information.

So the only way to communicate with other ICOM ISRs is to have an ICOM ISR? Are there any other radios that can talk to the CAP ISRs? If they would need to be programmed with encryption I could make that happen, I just need to know if there are any other radios that can do that.

Thanks for putting up with my stupid questions.

Ummmmm......

ISR frequencies are not encrypted. If you are lucky, you can find a hand-held like Vertec or Yaesu, AND if you can obtain a list of frequencies for ISR, AND the radio doesn't require a lot of fidgy-widginess to allow other frequencies to be used (There is a simple way to re-program the Yaseu FT-50R, which was a 30th birthday present. I can't tell you how, but it was altered to allow other frequencies to be used. Google it.), THEN you can probably use it in place of an ISR. I am NOT condoning this.

But it can be done.
1. ISRs are not encrypted.
2. Modifying a radio violates its FCC type acceptance, which makes operating it illegal.
3. Modifying a radio to operate on military frequencies is also illegal.
4. There are no other radios that can LEGALLY be programmed to operate on ISR frequencies.

I understand wanting a personal radio, but ISRs are very short range. If your unit does not have enough for your activities, your Communications Officer can request them from wing or other units. Many wings have caches of ISRs specifically for this purpose.
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C/SrA Ravlin
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« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2015, 12:33:14 AM »

Yes Sir. I apologize for my belligerence.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2015, 04:27:17 AM »

4. There are no other radios that can LEGALLY be programmed to operate on ISR frequencies.
I don't think that is true.   While most commercial radios do restrict the usable frequencies I'm sure you can buy some that are not blocked.  And there is no law against making and selling said radios.  It is just against the law to operate on said frequencies.

Point in case....you can buy lots of HF radios that work on the CAP freqs right off the shelf....and those freqs are military frequencies. 

Quote
I understand wanting a personal radio, but ISRs are very short range. If your unit does not have enough for your activities, your Communications Officer can request them from wing or other units. Many wings have caches of ISRs specifically for this purpose.
IIRC ICOM does not even make that model of the IRS any more.    The military did not follow up after the inital buy of the ISRs because they are too short ranged.   Too fragile for military use (if CAP guys can break them doing air show work...think of what and infantry man can do to them in A-Stan!).  Plus it was just easier and more flexible to issue MBITER (if more expansive) and use them in the ISR role instead of issuing another radio. 

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Brad
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« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2015, 10:40:20 AM »

CAP/NTIA-compliant P25-capable VHF radios: https://comm.capnhq.gov/equipment/digital_summary.cfm

CAP/NTIA-compliant VHF radios (P25 & non-P25-capable): https://comm.capnhq.gov/equipment/vhf_summary.cfm

If it's not on that list...good luck getting it there.

With regards to the ISR radios, as others have said there is only one that is compliant for use, and that is the one CAP uses, period. However since those things are such short-range, going through the hassle of getting your own personal one, getting it programmed, etc. etc., it's simply not worth it in the end. Heck, even myself as a Wing DC I have not even seen ISR programming software nor a source to even obtain it - that I have access to at least.

VHF radios though, again check the list first, then go from there. If you want to get a personal VHF, be aware of what you're getting into in terms of the secondary priority of it against corporate-owned radios, the on-your-own / non-support from National, the OPSEC concerns, especially if it comes with FPP capability, etc. That said, if you are really into communications, I'm not flat out discouraging it. I personally utilize a Motorola XTS5000 with AES-256 for CAP, fire department, and ham use and I love it. Takes a lick and keeps on ticking, PLUS I set up the voice files so it tells me which channel I'm on! (Take that EF Johnson! :P)

Again though, if your Wing is at their TOA limit and mission-capable, but you still want a radio issued just because, odds are you're not going to get it without a justifiable reason. This is why there is the ability to utilize member-owned equipment. Talk to your local hams or Squadron Comm Officer, see what they think. The hams especially, and hopefully your Squadron Comm Officer, have experience using a multitude of radios, and can give you an idea of the pros and cons of each based on the brand.

tldr: EF-Johnson 5100 is a safe bet, not too expensive and guaranteed to be CAP-compliant. Side-note though: encryption is coming "soon", so be sure to look at the actual 5100 or 5100-ES, not the 51SL, the SL cannot do encryption.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 10:52:09 AM by Brad » Report to moderator   Logged
Brad Lee
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Slim
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« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2015, 10:28:19 AM »

With regards to the ISR radios, as others have said there is only one that is compliant for use, and that is the one CAP uses, period. However since those things are such short-range, going through the hassle of getting your own personal one, getting it programmed, etc. etc., it's simply not worth it in the end. Heck, even myself as a Wing DC I have not even seen ISR programming software nor a source to even obtain it - that I have access to at least.

No such animal exists, in more ways than one.  Icom isn't making that particular model anymore, and there is not, nor ever was a means of programming them outside of the factory.  They were actually procured to fulfill a requirement for the Marine Corps, who promptly found that they were way too fragile for the intended use.  CAP bought thousands-probably tens of thousands-of them, and we're the only ones using them now.  In fact, NTIA/DoD is starting to allot some of the frequencies in that area (380-400 MHz) to multi state digital trunked radio systems.
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Slim
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« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2015, 06:53:41 PM »

With regards to the ISR radios, as others have said there is only one that is compliant for use, and that is the one CAP uses, period. However since those things are such short-range, going through the hassle of getting your own personal one, getting it programmed, etc. etc., it's simply not worth it in the end. Heck, even myself as a Wing DC I have not even seen ISR programming software nor a source to even obtain it - that I have access to at least.

No such animal exists, in more ways than one.  Icom isn't making that particular model anymore, and there is not, nor ever was a means of programming them outside of the factory.  They were actually procured to fulfill a requirement for the Marine Corps, who promptly found that they were way too fragile for the intended use.  CAP bought thousands-probably tens of thousands-of them, and we're the only ones using them now.  In fact, NTIA/DoD is starting to allot some of the frequencies in that area (380-400 MHz) to multi state digital trunked radio systems.

Query, does this mean there might be crates of these sitting in a depot somewhere waiting for some enterprising person to send them to CAP?
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lordmonar
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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2015, 07:16:23 PM »

No.....it means that boxes and boxes of ICOM "parts" were sold at DRMO to scrap dealers for pennies a pound.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2015, 07:21:47 PM »

No.....it means that boxes and boxes of ICOM "parts" were sold at DRMO to scrap dealers for pennies a pound.

:(
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Slim
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« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2015, 10:13:13 AM »

No.....it means that boxes and boxes of ICOM "parts" were sold at DRMO to scrap dealers for pennies a pound.

I don't know if they made it that far.  I've seen what cadets do to them at summer encampment, I can only imagine what they'd look like after a week with the Marines in Iraq.

In actuality, they probably had to be destroyed during the demil process; since there's no way to deprogram the frequencies, they probably got smacked with a hammer.  I used to watch the DLA auction site pretty regularly, and never saw any LMRs come up for bids.  I also had an in with the comm manager at one of the guard bases that was in the process of retiring about 100 VHF Astro Sabers and XTS-3000s.  I was working an angle to have wing screen some or all of them once they hit DRMO, but he said it's usually cheaper and easier for them to just destroy and recycle them than sit down and wipe the programming out of them one at a time.
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Slim
lordmonar
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« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2015, 05:35:21 PM »

No.....it means that boxes and boxes of ICOM "parts" were sold at DRMO to scrap dealers for pennies a pound.

I don't know if they made it that far.  I've seen what cadets do to them at summer encampment, I can only imagine what they'd look like after a week with the Marines in Iraq.

In actuality, they probably had to be destroyed during the demil process; since there's no way to deprogram the frequencies, they probably got smacked with a hammer.  I used to watch the DLA auction site pretty regularly, and never saw any LMRs come up for bids.  I also had an in with the comm manager at one of the guard bases that was in the process of retiring about 100 VHF Astro Sabers and XTS-3000s.  I was working an angle to have wing screen some or all of them once they hit DRMO, but he said it's usually cheaper and easier for them to just destroy and recycle them than sit down and wipe the programming out of them one at a time.
That's why I said "parts".
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2016, 03:31:55 PM »

I use the Baofeng UV-82, with a Nagoya 771 antenna. Works great, about $60 on Amazon. Other Baofengs are even cheaper.
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kirbahashi
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« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2016, 03:55:54 PM »

I use the Baofeng UV-82, with a Nagoya 771 antenna. Works great, about $60 on Amazon. Other Baofengs are even cheaper.

If you are talking for amateur radio, Baofeng's are fine.  If you are talking Civil Air Patrol, the Baofeng's are not authorized.  Unless the UV-82 made the compliant equipment list?  And the last time I checked it hadn't.
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Brad
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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2016, 05:52:32 AM »

I use the Baofeng UV-82, with a Nagoya 771 antenna. Works great, about $60 on Amazon. Other Baofengs are even cheaper.

If you are talking for amateur radio, Baofeng's are fine.  If you are talking Civil Air Patrol, the Baofeng's are not authorized.  Unless the UV-82 made the compliant equipment list?  And the last time I checked it hadn't.

The UV-82 is not listed one way or the other so it defaults to a no.
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Brad Lee
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« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2016, 03:13:18 AM »

Suggestion- no personal handheld.  That era ended.TODAY.

New Comm reg says all vhf to P-25 unless there's good reason noT to change, and personal radios aren't a reason. Oh, and we won't put encryption key in your PRICEY COMPLIANT radio unless CAP REALLY REALLY needs to do so.  SAVE YOUR MONEY. (Buy ABU's, I guess)

New day dawns for an organization that once built its own bombsights (WW2) and zip tied a home brew copper vhf j-pole antenna to a demolished billboard (Katrina). We are no longer a guerilla organization. 

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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2016, 03:42:45 AM »

What do you mean, no "personal handheld?"

I just scanned CAPR 100-1. There is still mention of "member-owned" radios.

Or do you mean when a member transfers from one unit to another, any hand-held issued to that person must be surrendered to the issuing unit? It was my impression that was the norm under the old 100-1...
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PHall
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« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2016, 04:28:31 AM »

What do you mean, no "personal handheld?"

I just scanned CAPR 100-1. There is still mention of "member-owned" radios.

Or do you mean when a member transfers from one unit to another, any hand-held issued to that person must be surrendered to the issuing unit? It was my impression that was the norm under the old 100-1...

Well, if your personal handheld is P-25 capable, great, it's still useful. If it isn't, and most aren't, it days are numbered if not over.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2016, 04:36:45 AM »

There is still mention of "member-owned" radios.

The nomenclature is "privately owned" if you're searching.

Well, if your personal handheld is P-25 capable, great, it's still useful. If it isn't, and most aren't, it days are numbered if not over.

You'd also require specific authorization to use the CAP code plugs.

"I am a GTL (etc.), and my wing does not have enough radios to complete its missions..."
Would be an example of a legit justification.

"I like to listen..." Isn't.

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PHall
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« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2016, 03:33:05 PM »

There is still mention of "member-owned" radios.

The nomenclature is "privately owned" if you're searching.

Well, if your personal handheld is P-25 capable, great, it's still useful. If it isn't, and most aren't, it days are numbered if not over.

You'd also require specific authorization to use the CAP code plugs.

"I am a GTL (etc.), and my wing does not have enough radios to complete its missions..."
Would be an example of a legit justification.

"I like to listen..." Isn't.

According to you, other Wing Communications personnel opinions may differ.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2016, 03:36:09 PM »

According to you, other Wing Communications personnel opinions may differ.

No doubt, however those opinions will need to be justified to the NHQ/DOK for specific approval.
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